how much money would surefire save if they used polymer bodies

Hypothetically, if Surefire switched all their lights (with the exception of some lights) to use polymer battery tubes and polymer tail caps, how much money would they save on manufacturing.

EDIT: ONLY the Battery Tube and tail cap, head would still be metal

I mean look at gun manufacturers Glock, Springfield Armory, Magpul, FN, Smith and Wesson, Kimber, Cavalry Arms, Bushmaster, H&K, etc. They all have introduced polymer parts into their firearms. They keep metal where it is needed, and they use polymer where metal isn't needed.

Maybe I'm missing something here, does the cross sectional area of the battery tube affect electrical conductance? Do some lights need the whole light for maximum surface area to dissipate heat?

Wouldn't it also be safer to use with CR123s because a exploding polymer tube probably won't cut your face as badly as a metal tube?

Blasphemy! SureFire fans will arrive shortly to burn you at the stake :laughing:

I don't know the answer, but it is an interesting question. Since LEDs get rid of heat mainly through the body, would using polymer bodies on the LED flashlights negatively affect the heat dissipation?

iamerror said:

I don't know the answer, but it is an interesting question. Since LEDs get rid of heat mainly through the body, would using polymer bodies on the LED flashlights negatively affect the heat dissipation?

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I guess that would depend on the type of led. The new Pelican 7060 designed for LAPD uses a poylmer body and IIRC a metal heatsink.

LED lights need the metal to dissipate heat. Other Surefire lights will loose part of their legendary toughness if made out of polymer. Polymer is not as tough as aluminum when it comes to crushing pressure(Edit: Some are better and have more flexiability). Metal just feels better, imagine a plastic Surefire M6. About exploding batteries, I have never seen a battery explode with enough force to actually break a battery tube.

Part of what makes a Surefire a Surefire is their wonderful aluminum tubes with near perfect knurling! Polymer doesn't have the look or feel of aluminum.

Gunner12 said:

LED lights need the metal to dissipate heat. Other Surefire lights will loose part of their legendary toughness if made out of polymer. Polymer is not as tough as aluminum when it comes to crushing pressure. Metal just feels better, imagine a plastic Surefire M6. About exploding batteries, I have never seen a battery explode with enough force to actually break a battery tube.

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Let's move away from that old mentality that "nothing is tougher than metal", we are in the age of composites.

watch this video here of a Magpul polymer magazine being ran over by a Chevy truck.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UCFXcOOb4jc

Polymers are flexible enough to flex a little and revert to original shape, Aluminum, although tough, will deform more than polymer.

I personally consider the concept irrelevant because costs involved are unknown and to guess seems foolish to me.

I think a better question would be:
"Are there any SureFire bodies & TailCaps that could be made out of Nitrolon that aren't already?"

There aren't many bodies that SureFire could convert to Nitrolon even if it were a better (or as you prefer, cheaper) option.

The G2, G3 and G2Z, 8NX and 10X already use Nitrolon polymer compared to the 6P, 9P and Z2, and 8AX.

The E-Series is too thin to use Polymer even if the body was not required as part of the thermal management of the LED bezels.

The KL3 and KL5 LED bezel already fit on the G2/G2Z bodies and the KL7 already fits on the 8NX. However, these bezels are larger and can deal with the heat.

It is possible for the M3 and M4 bodies to be Nitrolon I suppose but the bezels would still need to be Aluminium for the heat.

The G2/G3/G2Z have metal sleeves inside the bodies for strength and to ensure the switch contact is made reliably. The same would be required in the M3 and M4 bodies.

I don't think the M6 body could be made out Nitrolon without making it thicker. The heat generated by the bulb and batteries needs to be heat-sinked via the metal body into your hand just like the small LED flashlights such as the L4.

Any flashlight with SureFire's PocketClip attachment point would be difficult to make out of polymer. The strength would not be sufficient, and to have that component made from metal and the rest from Nitrolon does not seem like a viable option. This rules out the M2, C2/C3 and most all of the smaller flashlights such as the E2e, L4, A2 etc.

I also think that the 'exploding batteries' is a non-issue. Even if it were an issue I see no reason why the metal sleeve inside the body tube would be not sufficient in combination with the Nitrolon.

Al

The new LAPD Pelican light looks good. It has a Cree which puts out much less heat than a Luxeon. The Pelican has aluminum heat fins, but the rest is polymer. I bet if you dropped it and a Sure L6 off a roof and down some stairs, the Pelican would not suffer nearly as much damage as the Surefire L6.

BSCOTT1504 said:

Part of what makes a Surefire a Surefire is their wonderful aluminum tubes with near perfect knurling! Polymer doesn't have the look or feel of aluminum.

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Yes, I understand that, I love Surefire's knurling too.

If you get a chance to ever try out an AR, find one with a Magpul MIAD grip or a Tangodown Battle grip, the gripping surface/texture is just amazing, even when wet.

Surefire can be like Magpul and have microscopic Surefire logos on the texture!:lolsign:

Hey Al, what about using extruded aluminum?, would that help drive the cost down and increase volume production

:eeew:

boosterboy said:

Hypothetically, if Surefire switched all their lights (with the exception of some lights) to use polymer battery tubes and polymer tail caps, how much money would they save on manufacturing.

EDIT: ONLY the Battery Tube and tail cap, head would still be metal

I mean look at gun manufacturers Glock, Springfield Armory, Magpul, FN, Smith and Wesson, Kimber, Cavalry Arms, Bushmaster, H&K, etc. They all have introduced polymer parts into their firearms. They keep metal where it is needed, and they use polymer where metal isn't needed.

Maybe I'm missing something here, does the cross sectional area of the battery tube affect electrical conductance? Do some lights need the whole light for maximum surface area to dissipate heat?

Wouldn't it also be safer to use with CR123s because a exploding polymer tube probably won't cut your face as badly as a metal tube?

Click to expand...

I mean look at gun manufacturers Glock, Springfield Armory, Magpul, FN, Smith and Wesson, Kimber, Cavalry Arms, Bushmaster, H&K, etc. They all have introduced polymer parts into their firearms. They keep metal where it is needed, and they use polymer where metal isn't needed.

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Apples and oranges. Gun manufacturers are replacing expensive STEEL alloys with polymer materials, not ordinary aluminum. I'd agree that if SureFire used high-carbon steel in their flashlights instead of aluminum, then switching to polymer would probably drive the prices down a little bit, but this is just a wild guess... BTW, a Glock pistol isn't any cheaper than any other all-metal quality pistol.

Outdoors Fanatic said:

Apples and oranges. Gun manufacturers are replacing expensive STEEL alloys with polymer materials, not ordinary aluminum. I'd agree that if SureFire used high-carbon steel in their flashlights instead of aluminum, then switching to polymer would probably drive the prices down a little bit, but this is just a wild guess... BTW, a Glock pistol isn't any cheaper than any other all-metal quality pistol.

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you're telling me that injection molded polymer tubes aren't cheaper than Surefire's CNCing from raw Al barstock?

Glocks are significantly cheaper than "any other all-metal quality pistol"

Size15's said:

I think a better question would be:
"Are there any SureFire bodies & TailCaps that could be made out of Nitrolon that aren't already?"

There aren't many bodies that SureFire could convert to Nitrolon even if it were a better (or as you prefer, cheaper) option.


Al

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EXACTLY!

boosterboy said:

you're telling me that injection molded polymer tubes aren't cheaper than Surefire's CNCing from raw Al barstock?

Glocks are significantly cheaper than "any other all-metal quality pistol"

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you're telling me that injection molded polymer tubes aren't cheaper than Surefire's CNCing from raw Al barstock?

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The fact of the matter is that, they would need to use a special composite material to withstand the heat in the M series. And that would only increase the price-- significantly I should say. Aluminum is the cheapest alternative to this purpose, they would have to use something like carbon fiber or other "space age" material instead. It's not possible to use something like Nitrolon to build the M6... Composite materials are not always a cheaper solution like you implied in your original post. And then there is also the high-powered LEDs heat dissipation issue, which requires some system to drive the heat away from the LED, again aluminum is king here.

Glocks are significantly cheaper than "any other all-metal quality pistol"

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CZ 75/85's are cheaper and just as good.

boosterboy said:

Hey Al, what about using extruded aluminum?, would that help drive the cost down and increase volume production

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The cost of investing in technology to perform this manufacturing process, and the cost to be written off by not using the many new mult-million-dollar 11-axis CNC turning centres they have invested heavily in over the last few years would likely mean change to some cheap maglite manufacturing process would cost them for years and years and I don't see how they could reduced the flashlight price to the customer until those costs are recovered. Bottom line: Not an option in the slightest in my opinion.

Al

Let's just forget about exploding batteries, thanks.

Why change when the design a sound one? If surefire wants to save on manufacturing, setup a factory in a cheaper environment. If that ever happens, hopefully SF have the sense to also provide the same quality control currently adopted. Stanley tools now is manufactured in China, but the quality control has not changed, which provides the same tools at a cheaper retail now.

[NIGHTMARE]*SHUDDER* a polymer A2 *SHUDDER*[/NIGHTMARE]