LumensFactory Vs. SureFire

To LumensFactory,

The claim has been made by some, including our much esteemed MDOCOD (Valued contributor at CPF), that SureFire must be updating their lamp technology to keep up with the state-of-the-art, and that their lamps should be very high-pressured also - the key difference being that SureFire doesn't drive their lamps as hard and thus SureFire lamps last longer. Some people here at these forums are also applying the following formulas to try to equate "LumensFactory Bulb Lumens" to "SureFire Torch Lumens," and that is multiply the LumensFactory bulb-lumens by .65 to acheive regular torch lumens, then multiply further by .80 to yield the de-rated average torch lumens provided by SureFire. This formula when applied to the SR-9 yields 220 X .65 X .80 = 114 SureFire Lumens. As the SureFire P90 is spec'd at 105 SureFire Lumens, this is an increase in only 9% efficiency.

My question to you is, how do you see your efficiency (as provided by your 8 atm xenon pressure and robust filament design) as compared to SureFire, and can you quantify, or estimate, what you feel this efficiency is?

I think a larger difference would be noted simply by changing which brand of CR123 one used to drive the lamps.

The most important thing to understand, is how insignificant these slight differences are in the real world, how unimportant a 10-20% difference in light is. But I'm still the type to split hairs, because I want to know the details also. So in reality, doesn't matter, but for the sake of fun, I'd like to know more!

If you have a 50 lumen light, and want a nice noticeable "jump" in performance, you need to shoot for about 150 lumen, if you want to make another nice "jump" you would want to shoot for about 500 lumen, the next jump would need to be about 1500 lumens, then 5000 lumens, etc etc...

The point being, that to have a substantial impact on function, the differences in light output need to be substantial, on a logarithmic scale.

So, whether or not the SR-9 is 150 lumens or 100 lumens, just isn't going to matter in the real world... but I'd be interested to know more details on this as well.

What would be nice, is if we had bulb specs from other brands, listed the same way LF does it. V>A>lumen>@CCT@life. LF is the only brand of tactical lamps that provides these details. So Hats off to LF!

What I find funny, is that most of us know what mdocod says is true, but we still yearn for that extra 20 lumens. If there's a lamp out there that can get us 220 instead of 200, we'll take it! Even if it means a little less runtime. I guess that's just part of being a flashaholic, eh?

What is the difference in price between the two? If somebody has actually measured the difference between the two (in out the front lumens), could somebody post a link in this thread. Beamshots would also be helpful. Thanks.

SR-9 ~$13+shipping, P90 ~$25-30 depending on source.

Art, I havent seen any Integrating Sphere or Integrating Bathroom comparisons, there has been a few beamshot comparisons, not sure if I posted in the Lumens Factory thread or not. Basically the LF are half the price as equivalent Surefires, some are brighter and they make some models which are not made by Surefire. I will be doing a bunch of beamshots soon, will post a link to them.

Wrath, Mark from Lumens Factory tests his lamps in an integrating sphere and provides that information to the public, including amps drawn and voltage used. They are very open about their results. I don't think it is either possible or polite for Mark to comment on Surefire's manufacturing process, or possible improvements over that. LF don't see themselves as a Surefire replacement, more a boutique lamp manufacturer who offer us alternatives which may or may not be related to Surefire such as EO2R for Surefire E2E (an option not available from Surefire) or the EO13 for the Wolf Eyes Rattlesnake 13V. I can tell you that LF don't see SF as the only manufacturer in town.

I am a dealer for LF, so bear that in mind when reading my comments.

Mdocod, as always, I seem to agree with you 100% Batteries make a huge difference and these differences are minor (though when I buy a lamp I like to get the one 10% more efficient)

Art Vandelay said:

What is the difference in price between the two? If somebody has actually measured the difference between the two (in out the front lumens), could somebody post a link in this thread. Beamshots would also be helpful. Thanks.

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Shot I took comparing some of my favorite lamps from both Surefire and Lumens Factory all running in SureFire bodies.









I love the LF E0-9 LA in my SureFire 9P running 2x17670s with an A19 extender.

The LF E2R on 2 unprotected Li-Ions is slightly brighter and a bit floodier than the SF P60. All in the small SureFire E2E body, not bad. and guilt free too. The M6 with the MN21 thrown in for perspective.

Glen C said:

I don't think it is either possible or polite for Mark to comment on Surefire's manufacturing process, or possible improvements over that.

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I understand your point, and I anticipated the "I can't comment on brand X's product" response. In response, I feel that SureFire is recognized as the Benchmark Standard by which other high-end suppliers are typically compared. The claim of "higher efficiency" is meaningless unless it is in reference to some real, comparitive standard. More efficient than what - a "regular pressure bulb" rather than an "ultra high-pressure bulb?" What if no high-end supplier produces products with "regular pressure bulbs," then what utility is this "high efficiency" label? If these labels are to have meaning, then they ought to be comparable to some competitive product in the marketplace. I mean, this is Apples to Apples after all. Miles-Per-Gallon are comparable between Toyota and Ford, why can't Lumens be comparable between LumensFactory and SureFire? Would Ford consider it impolite if Toyota said that their leading sedan got better mileage than Ford's leading sedan? No, that would just be called advertising - based on technical facts none the less.

EV_007, thanks for the pics. The LF EO-9 compared very well with M6's MN21, cheaper as well.....

jumpstat said:

The LF EO-9 compared very well with M6's MN21, cheaper as well.....

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Are you looking at the same picture I'm looking at? Because I see the MN21 having a blindingly bright hot spot and a good amount more spill than the EO-9's moderately bright hot spot and lesser spill. The MN21 actually looks at least 2.5 times brighter.

EV_007, thanks for the beamshots, but would you have any ones comparing equivalent wattage LumensFactory and SureFire bulbs - like a P90 compared to an SR-9, or a SR-12 compared to a MN60. Thanks!

LF don't see themselves as a Surefire replacement, more a boutique lamp manufacturer who offer us alternatives which may or may not be related to Surefire

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absolutely agree. I just absolutely love having the extra options that have been made available. With WE, PILA, LF, G&P, SF, LF all in the game, we have a lot of configuration options to choose from.

As far as the high pressure high efficiency issue goes. I am not aware of ANY compact tactical lamp made by any manufacture that is not considered high pressure, with variations in fill gas chemistry, all containing some percent halogen, xenon, and possible trace amounts of argon or krypton or other fill gases... I have "busted" a G&P lamp, trust, me, it was high pressure also, ears rang after it popped and shards went in every direction at high velocities.

the fuel economy is an interesting point... As a consumer, it might be important to know WHY a vehicle is getting better fuel economy, and not just that it does. As A consumer, maybe I find out that it's because it weighs less, then I might have to take into consideration whether I want to weigh less in competition in an accident. Maybe the SF isn't going to be as efficient on CR123s as a LF lamp, but it will last more hours (weigh more) survive better.

It's all about tradeoffs. In tactical lamps, having good survivability or longevity is important, that's why we don't see Tactical lamps on the bleeding edge of survivability, like 3475K@8 hours life. A well built magmod, with plenty of hefty overdrive, will drive a lamp well over 30 lm/w and blow all these tactical lamps out of competition as far as efficiency goes, and that can be done with a $3-10 bulb in many cases. It's designed for WOW factor, not tactical engagements.

you can take a 5 cell magnumstar xenon bulb and make it about 35-40lm/w efficient with about a 3-8 hour life on a pair of 18500s. Or a generic alternative, do the same thing for $1.69.

The MN21 is close to 1000 bulb lumens on fresh cells. The picture clearly shows this.

I would really love to see Apples to Apples measurements made between SureFire and LumensFactory. From what I can see, SureFire has two grades of lamp tech - their integrated P60/P61/P90/P91 type lamp assemblies, and their military MN/11/MN15/MN21 type lamp assemblies. They also have their "executive" and LED assemblies, but I will ignore those for right now - sorry. LumensFactory, of course, thus far only has their integrated bulb&reflector tech. I would love to see someone take a SureFire bulb and throw it in an integrated sphere and take the equivalent watt LumensFactory bulb and throw it in an integrated sphere as well and compare the results. This would definately answer the question as to which tech is most efficient and by how much. Certain things in life are subjective, net light output is not one of those things - it can be measured, quantified, and compared.

jumpstat said:

EV_007, thanks for the pics. The LF EO-9 compared very well with M6's MN21, cheaper as well.....

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Sorry, but I didn't think it compared very well. I see a substantial difference in intensity from the MN21...

EV 007, thank you for those pictures.

Those beamshots make me want an M6 in a bad way.

The MN21 has a run time of 20 minutes. What is the run time of the LF EO-9?

wrathothebunny said:

LumensFactory, of course, thus far only has their integrated bulb&reflector tech.

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Not really. The LF E series is bulb only.

GeorgePaul said:

Not really. The LF E series is bulb only.

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I know, I mentioned that I was going to ignore the "Executive" and LED lamp assembly options.

As far as longevity, I have burned out one LF lamp in 15 hours, but it was rated for 15 hours. I have only burned out one SF lamp which took 60 hours, though it was rated for 25 hours. My most used lamp is a P90 with over 70 hours on it.

What is the run time of the LF EO-9?

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depends on the configuration it is used in. Anything from 12 minutes to 1 hour.