Cards for Internet buying -a new bank account ?

Sarratt

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Jul 22, 2006
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Ottawa, Ont. Canada
I trust a lot of you guys here so here goes .-

How safe is On-line shopping ?

I--

Thanks

M

ps ... why do sites say "paypal but no papal needed " ????...and why can't I just phone in my VISA number etc ?
 

barkingmad

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Apr 16, 2007
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578
Paypal is often better / more secure as effectively you pay Paypal and they pay the merchant - they do not give your credit card details to the merchant - i.e. just money received.
 

BB

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I don't do a lot of Internet buying--but IMHO using a US credit card (don't know about international laws) is the best for on-line transactions.

CC: Credit Card company is, by law, considered to be one of the selling parties and responsible for ensuring the transaction is satisfactorily completed. If you cannot achieve resolution with the merchant, going to the CC company will get your money back (even if temporarily) into your account until resolved. If you win, the CC company will have to get their money back from the Merchant. Also, you are liable, at most, to $50 of fraudulent CC use. Some CC companies offer 1 time use numbers if you have concerns about CC number leaks. Merchants seem to usually lose CC challenges by customers.

ATM Card/Debit Card: Looks like a credit card, and may be operated by a CC company. However, this is your checking account. You cannot stop a check written and given to a merchant if you have a complaint about the transaction--that is fraud on your part. There is no limitation of liability for fraud on your account--if it is drained, you loose the money until you can (if you are lucky) find the responsible party and get the money back from them (not the bank or CC company). Checks and checking accounts have the same issue. Many credit card companies have said that they will give Debit Card users the same protection as Credit Cards ($50 fraud, immediate refund of money if fraud is suspected). Don't know if you can hold CC companies, by law, to these rules. Whoever last holds the "check" generally looses the money and it can take a long time for the customer to get money back into their checking about even if fraud is proven and the bank was somewhat responsible (forged check, no ID, etc.).

Pay Pal: No government laws, no regulatory authority. No ability to appeal issues past Pay Pal's own processes/people. They can change their rules anytime. They can close accounts, they can freeze your money, etc. The only rules are Pay Pals rules. If you link their accounts to your checking account, they can sweep money out of your account--and you have to deal with your bank to try and get it back. If you link their account to your CC account--you can appeal through the CC company to get your money back--although--it appears that Pay Pal will hate you for the rest of your life (I guess they will make it hard for you to ever use Pay Pal again?).

Over time, any type of account is vulnerable to fraud (even carrying/paying with cash and checks has issues too). Credit Card transactions seem to offer the best protection for the customer/buyer if something goes wrong. Obviously, improper use of Credit Cards can bury people in debt--a very bad thing in itself. Don't use a CC's revolving credit function--it is a bad deal all the way around (expensive to borrow money, laws are against you if trying to declare bankruptcy).

So, I only use ATM Card (like at local gas station or very major store) when I don't have cash or they don't take Credit Cards. Use Credit Cards everywhere for protection (cash back, airline miles--if you have that) and only use them like checks (have cash to pay off bill every month).

Use checks for bills (or online bill pay now).

Never use Pay Pal or link to my checking account.

I realize that there are literally 10's of millions of people, with probably billions of transactions, that are perfectly happy with Pay Pal (maybe other than their fees) and have never had any problems with Pay Pal.

No expert--but that is how I see it.

-Bill
 
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Bravo25

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Bill thats a good thought. Thanks for sharing it. I have become increasingly more concerned about Paypal. they may be stable today, but tommorrow is another matter. I am thinking of removing my bank account info from my PP account, and moving the money to someplace like ING, or HSBC for those very reasons. At least with a banking institution the funds are FDIC insured. At Paypal there is no gaurentees. I could understand not being able to guarentee the return on the money market, but to know that they can control the account completely is a worisome thought. I could not recover very well if the funds were just "lost" somehow.

Chuck
 

Datasaurusrex

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Bill thats a good thought. Thanks for sharing it. I have become increasingly more concerned about Paypal. they may be stable today, but tommorrow is another matter.


Yeah I lost a large sum of money when a online CC processor called mypaysystem closed part of its operation. Last I checked the class action wasn't getting far. Any online payment system is a risk, you just have to weigh the cost/benefit and try to control the variables as much as possible.
 

Eskimonio

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If you have a Citibank Credit Card, on their website, you can issue yourself "VIRTUAL" credit card numbers on the spot.

IMHO it's a great option for protecting yourself if you want to avoid PayPal.

You basically log into the Citibank website for your account, and there's a button that says VIRTUAL CARD NUMBERS. You click on that and it will generate a credit card number with CVC code and an expiration date of one month away. This new number does not interrupt anything on your current credit card like auto bill pays etc., but it just links in so that charges on the virtual number are billed to your normal statement.

You fill in the virtual card number information on whatever website you're buying from, and the charges come on your credit card just like normal. It's pretty transparent as far as the billing goes.

It's great for things like autorenewing magazine subscriptions, etc. because if they try to autorenew in a year...that card number is expired, so you don't have to worry about forgetting to cancel.

I have used this about 5 times, and have created 3 virtual card numbers...you can use the same card number more than once, as it's kept track of for you.
 

barkingmad

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The Citibank option sounds nice.

It's a shame all the banks do not operate something a bit like Paypal - it would be much better if you went to a web site - bought an item - got transferred to your bank to authorise the transaction and the merchant only gets 'PAID' or not.
 

WhatMACHI

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At the moment i have a separate Visa Debit card, which works like a savings card however has a "credit card" number which i can use to make purchases etc etc. The good thing is i only put money into the account when i expect to make a purchase, so there is never really more than $40 in the account which is at risk. This is also the account linked to my Paypay.

Sure someone could make a large debit, but chances are its alot safer than having a Credit Card linked up, or a savings acount linked up with larger amounts of money deposited.
 

BB

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Keeping small amounts of money in your debit card account is one way to keep safe...

I just go back to my S&L, after they mail me a ATM/Debit card renewal, and just tell them to cut me an ATM only card... So far, that has not been a problem with my savings and loan. --But that ATM card is tied to my normal checking account--so I don't want to lose any money there.

Remember, ATM Cards (in theory) require a PIN Code (that you have not written on the card or kept in your wallet). Debit Cards may be run like a Credit Card (just the card numbers and, maybe, a signature).

-Bill
 

Bravo25

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Its bad in local retail also. Best Buy is famous for not asking for ID. Swap the card sign the pad, and out you go. I asked thier loss prevention about it once, and they told me they don't care. It is my problem if someone was using my stolen card. They of course aren't the only ones, but it is disconcerning.
 

cy

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all basically true... but paypal has one redeeming feature credit cards don't.... which is a way to check your seller.

after entering seller's paypal address, you can click on seller profile. when seller registered, number of completed transactions and if a verified seller.

for instance if I see that seller only has 7 completed transactions, but registered 4 years ago. Odds of that person being a scammer is pretty remote.

Now if that seller has 2 transactions and registered 3 days ago without verification. that would be a possible profile of a scammer and would warrant further checking out of seller. best way to proceed is credit card paypal. if paypal will not do anything, the credit card company will.

on cpf... number of posts is a real safety indicator, but no guarantees.. doing business on other internet venures. paypal is a real hassles saver.

BB; said:
I don't do a lot of Internet buying--but IMHO using a US credit card (don't know about international laws) is the best for on-line transactions.

CC: Credit Card company is, by law, considered to be one of the selling parties and responsible for ensuring the transaction is satisfactorily completed. If you cannot achieve resolution with the merchant, going to the CC company will get your money back (even if temporarily) into your account until resolved. If you win, the CC company will have to get their money back from the Merchant. Also, you are liable, at most, to $50 of fraudulent CC use. Some CC companies offer 1 time use numbers if you have concerns about CC number leaks. Merchants seem to usually lose CC challenges by customers.

ATM Card/Debit Card: Looks like a credit card, and may be operated by a CC company. However, this is your checking account. You cannot stop a check written and given to a merchant if you have a complaint about the transaction--that is fraud on your part. There is no limitation of liability for fraud on your account--if it is drained, you loose the money until you can (if you are lucky) find the responsible party and get the money back from them (not the bank or CC company). Checks and checking accounts have the same issue. Many credit card companies have said that they will give Debit Card users the same protection as Credit Cards ($50 fraud, immediate refund of money if fraud is suspected). Don't know if you can hold CC companies, by law, to these rules. Whoever last holds the "check" generally looses the money and it can take a long time for the customer to get money back into their checking about even if fraud is proven and the bank was somewhat responsible (forged check, no ID, etc.).

Pay Pal: No government laws, no regulatory authority. No ability to appeal issues past Pay Pal's own processes/people. They can change their rules anytime. They can close accounts, they can freeze your money, etc. The only rules are Pay Pals rules. If you link their accounts to your checking account, they can sweep money out of your account--and you have to deal with your bank to try and get it back. If you link their account to your CC account--you can appeal through the CC company to get your money back--although--it appears that Pay Pal will hate you for the rest of your life (I guess they will make it hard for you to ever use Pay Pal again?).

Over time, any type of account is vulnerable to fraud (even carrying/paying with cash and checks has issues too). Credit Card transactions seem to offer the best protection for the customer/buyer if something goes wrong. Obviously, improper use of Credit Cards can bury people in debt--a very bad thing in itself. Don't use a CC's revolving credit function--it is a bad deal all the way around (expensive to borrow money, laws are against you if trying to declare bankruptcy).

So, I only use ATM Card (like at local gas station or very major store) when I don't have cash or they don't take Credit Cards. Use Credit Cards everywhere for protection (cash back, airline miles--if you have that) and only use them like checks (have cash to pay off bill every month).

Use checks for bills (or online bill pay now).

Never use Pay Pal or link to my checking account.

I realize that there are literally 10's of millions of people, with probably billions of transactions, that are perfectly happy with Pay Pal (maybe other than their fees) and have never had any problems with Pay Pal.

No expert--but that is how I see it.

-Bill
 

BB

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And Credit Cards have one feature that most other forms of payments don't... "One of the sellers" in the transaction is the CC Company itself--as defined by law.

With untold billions of dollars of assets and thousands of consumer protection laws, plus, they are usually affiliated with my bank/S&L and it's regulatory bodies. I can always go back to "the seller" and get my money back in a few minutes (and, assuming that the charge back is legitimate).

Again, I know there are 10's of millions of PayPal customers that are probably, on the average, pretty satisfied with PayPal.

What has always bugged me is the way PayPal has always tried to skirt around any and all banking, credit, and consumer protection laws (and even for a long time, to the point of hiding their telephone numbers). That is why I have never trusted them.

-Bill
 

tradderran

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Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
170
I don't do a lot of Internet buying--but IMHO using a US credit card (don't know about international laws) is the best for on-line transactions.

CC: Credit Card company is, by law, considered to be one of the selling parties and responsible for ensuring the transaction is satisfactorily completed. If you cannot achieve resolution with the merchant, going to the CC company will get your money back (even if temporarily) into your account until resolved. If you win, the CC company will have to get their money back from the Merchant. Also, you are liable, at most, to $50 of fraudulent CC use. Some CC companies offer 1 time use numbers if you have concerns about CC number leaks. Merchants seem to usually lose CC challenges by customers.

ATM Card/Debit Card: Looks like a credit card, and may be operated by a CC company. However, this is your checking account. You cannot stop a check written and given to a merchant if you have a complaint about the transaction--that is fraud on your part. There is no limitation of liability for fraud on your account--if it is drained, you loose the money until you can (if you are lucky) find the responsible party and get the money back from them (not the bank or CC company). Checks and checking accounts have the same issue. Many credit card companies have said that they will give Debit Card users the same protection as Credit Cards ($50 fraud, immediate refund of money if fraud is suspected). Don't know if you can hold CC companies, by law, to these rules. Whoever last holds the "check" generally looses the money and it can take a long time for the customer to get money back into their checking about even if fraud is proven and the bank was somewhat responsible (forged check, no ID, etc.).

Pay Pal: No government laws, no regulatory authority. No ability to appeal issues past Pay Pal's own processes/people. They can change their rules anytime. They can close accounts, they can freeze your money, etc. The only rules are Pay Pals rules. If you link their accounts to your checking account, they can sweep money out of your account--and you have to deal with your bank to try and get it back. If you link their account to your CC account--you can appeal through the CC company to get your money back--although--it appears that Pay Pal will hate you for the rest of your life (I guess they will make it hard for you to ever use Pay Pal again?).

Over time, any type of account is vulnerable to fraud (even carrying/paying with cash and checks has issues too). Credit Card transactions seem to offer the best protection for the customer/buyer if something goes wrong. Obviously, improper use of Credit Cards can bury people in debt--a very bad thing in itself. Don't use a CC's revolving credit function--it is a bad deal all the way around (expensive to borrow money, laws are against you if trying to declare bankruptcy).

So, I only use ATM Card (like at local gas station or very major store) when I don't have cash or they don't take Credit Cards. Use Credit Cards everywhere for protection (cash back, airline miles--if you have that) and only use them like checks (have cash to pay off bill every month).

Use checks for bills (or online bill pay now).

Never use Pay Pal or link to my checking account.

I realize that there are literally 10's of millions of people, with probably billions of transactions, that are perfectly happy with Pay Pal (maybe other than their fees) and have never had any problems with Pay Pal.

No expert--but that is how I see it.

-Bill
I am with you on this one. DON'T USE OR TAKE PAYPOOP.
 

BB

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I am not going to bash PayPal--because I don't use PayPal and have no personal experience to back my concerns. I just don't like they way they have chosen to do business...

And now, here I am trying to check out at the Fenix-Store.com site and it looks like they go through PayPal to use my Credit Card... Ugh.

I have read enough about PayPal to be concerned that they may have a leak in their CC data when attaching PayPal accounts to CC accounts. I really don't want to get near PayPal with any transaction.

Hmmm... Otherwise it is mailing a check to Fenix-Store or going elsewhere with CC (and probably paying more). And I like Fenix-Store because the use USPS and can ship to my PO Box--much better than leaving it on my front porch (nothing lost yet--but why risk it).

Decisions, decisions...

-Bill
 

cy

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Dec 20, 2003
Messages
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Location
USA
again... one has the option of funding that particular purchase with credit card. so everything you posted will be truth for that particular sale.

paypal makes it inconvenient as possible for you to take that option. but it is there. PP will drain your cash account to zero before allowing a credit card option.

you've stated you don't use paypal... you must not sell much on cpf.

not saying folks new to cpf and require post office money orders only are scammers.
but look at the Jeers to tactical Candle thread. who was a cpf newbie and required post office money order only. currently he's under arrest for de-defrauding folks. including CPF.

sure paypal is a pita! but there's certain precautions you can take. like opening a bank account specifically for paypal. then don't use that account for any other purpose and keep a low balance.

I've done 300+ sales with paypal with hundred more PP transactions when used to purchase. I've had zero problems with paypal.

also have done loads of purchases over the web with credit cards. but only if merchant will not take paypal. and only if I can't find that item anywhere else. so I'll end up passing on purchases if merchant will not take paypal.

don't get me wrong... there are loads of folks on WWW that's had horror stories posted about paypal and probably all true. no question, PP is biased towards the buyer. that's why I offer a 100% money back refund for any reason less shipping on anything I sell.

If someone is not happy... then either I didn't do a good enough job describing the item. or buyer flat cannot be made happy. In either case, it's flat not worth the grief. much better to refund and be done.

BB; said:
And Credit Cards have one feature that most other forms of payments don't... "One of the sellers" in the transaction is the CC Company itself--as defined by law.

With untold billions of dollars of assets and thousands of consumer protection laws, plus, they are usually affiliated with my bank/S&L and it's regulatory bodies. I can always go back to "the seller" and get my money back in a few minutes (and, assuming that the charge back is legitimate).

Again, I know there are 10's of millions of PayPal customers that are probably, on the average, pretty satisfied with PayPal.

What has always bugged me is the way PayPal has always tried to skirt around any and all banking, credit, and consumer protection laws (and even for a long time, to the point of hiding their telephone numbers). That is why I have never trusted them.

-Bill
 
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