Electric Vehicle Conversions

yuandrew · Jun 2, 2007

Some video I found on youtube of electric car conversion.

First one is what I'd describe as the best sounding. Host vehicle is a 1994 Toyota Camry which was converted by AmpmobilesConversions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7olqK4q7RY

It has a very similar sound to the EV-1 plus gear shifts. There are some good tips by the driver near the end for maximizing range.

There are many other conversions on youtube as well. I'm following someone's progress on "Forkenswift"; a Suzuki Swift (AKA the GeoMetro) conversion. They just test drove it in April but it's not fully compleated yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDERyAILOak

(See if you can recognize the voice over at the end of this video)

Fallingwater · Jun 2, 2007

I find such conversions theoretically interesting, but practically useless.
We need MUCH better battery technologies before electric-only vehicles become a smart idea.
Lead-acid is way too heavy, NiMH is better but still has pathetic energy density, and lithium rechargeables have a useful life of two to three years.

On another note, I find converting a normal car to electric power is not the smartest solution.
Since electric powerplants don't have as much potential energy as fuel ones, it makes sense to design as light and aerodynamic a vehicle as you can. Your battery charge will last much longer if they only have to move 500 kg of car rather than a ton, and better air penetration can only improve things.

Converting a normal vehicle is sure easier and cheaper, but the result leaves a lot to be desired.

BentHeadTX · Jun 2, 2007

I have been playing around with electric motors/controllers and batteries for about two years and have a few thoughts.

Lead Acid AGM cells work but way to many problems keeping them balanced and the weight is excessive.

Thought about NiMH but I don't like the idea of dozens to hundreds of cells to track and charge...balance problems and limited life. Lithium-Ion? Considering I am working on powered bicycles I don't want them anywere near the "boys" when they explode.

Then I found A123 Systems and have four of their "36V" (32V actual) 2.3 Ah cells and they work great for my Dewalt drill/saw power tools. Thought I found the right battery technology until I researched A123 Systems. The best way to describe them is the Mag of the battery business. They have been producing their M1 cells for almost 2 years with no changes, no larger cells and no price movement. Their record breaking electric motorcycle uses 990 M1 cells so I was turned off by the complexity.

Checked Saphion cells and they are better but I wanted something a bit different. My project demands a 48V/40Ah lithium-ion pack minimum so I kept looking.

Meanwhile, Altairnano jumped on the scene and the batteries are already in production and shipping! Woohoo! A company that is not full of crap! From what I gather, the 88 Ah cells are 3.7V lithium-titanate as the battery they showed was labled "13.8V" and it contained 4 cells. Then I looked for specifications and this is what I came up with.

Battery charge time 10 minutes or less
Battery cycle life 15,000 cycles to 85%
Battery life 15 to 20 years
Temperature range -30C to 75C
Battery voltage 3.7V
Battery capacity 88 amp hours
Discharge capacity 100C
Safety Will not explode when punctured, shorted, overheated or overcharged.

They tested a 35 KW hour pack and charged it in less than 10 minutes, discharged it at C/2 (17.5 KW discharge) in 2 hours, recharged in less than 10 minutes etc. for 50 cycles. The cells held the same capacity as they did before the test was performed.

I want those cells! Granted, I don't have access to a 480VAC 3-phase electrical line to get the under 10 minute recharge but a 14 cell 51.8V / 88 Ah 4.5 KW/H pack won't require it. 120V at 10 amps will recharge at work or overnight so not a problem on my end.

Phoenix Motorcars is coming out with a 5 passenger sport utility pickup truck with a 130 mile range and a top speed of 95 MPH using the Altairnano 35 KW/H pack. The thing costs $45,000 but prices will drop once they get the economy of scale working for them. The truck and battery factory is in California so no worries about shipping screwing up the production line.

Now if Altairnano could make some of those lithium-titanate batteries in the RCR123/AA/AAA size for us flashaholics...

matrixshaman · Jun 2, 2007

BentHeadTX said:
I have been playing around with electric motors/controllers and batteries for about two years and have a few thoughts. Lead Acid AGM cells work but way to many problems keeping them balanced and the weight is excessive.

Thought about NiMH but I don't like the idea of dozens to hundreds of cells to track and charge...balance problems and limited life. Lithium-Ion? Considering I am working on powered bicycles I don't want them anywere near the "boys" when they explode.

Then I found A123 Systems and have four of their "36V" (32V actual) 2.3 Ah cells and they work great for my Dewalt drill/saw power tools. Thought I found the right battery technology until I researched A123 Systems. The best way to describe them is the Mag of the battery business. They have been producing their M1 cells for almost 2 years with no changes, no larger cells and no price movement. Their record breaking electric motorcycle uses 990 M1 cells so I was turned off by the complexity.

Checked Saphion cells and they are better but I wanted something a bit different. My project demands a 48V/40Ah lithium-ion pack minimum so I kept looking.

Meanwhile, Altairnano jumped on the scene and the batteries are already in production and shipping! Woohoo! A company that is not full of crap! From what I gather, the 88 Ah cells are 3.7V lithium-titanate as the battery they showed was labled "13.8V" and it contained 4 cells. Then I looked for specifications and this is what I came up with.

Battery charge time 10 minutes or less
Battery cycle life 15,000 cycles to 85%
Battery life 15 to 20 years
Temperature range -30C to 75C
Battery voltage 3.7V
Battery capacity 88 amp hours
Discharge capacity 100C
Safety Will not explode when punctured, shorted, overheated or overcharged.

They tested a 35 KW hour pack and charged it in less than 10 minutes, discharged it at C/2 (17.5 KW discharge) in 2 hours, recharged in less than 10 minutes etc. for 50 cycles. The cells held the same capacity as they did before the test was performed.

I want those cells! Granted, I don't have access to a 480VAC 3-phase electrical line to get the under 10 minute recharge but a 14 cell 51.8V / 88 Ah 4.5 KW/H pack won't require it. 120V at 10 amps will recharge at work or overnight so not a problem on my end.

Phoenix Motorcars is coming out with a 5 passenger sport utility pickup truck with a 130 mile range and a top speed of 95 MPH using the Altairnano 35 KW/H pack. The thing costs $45,000 but prices will drop once they get the economy of scale working for them. The truck and battery factory is in California so no worries about shipping screwing up the production line.

Now if Altairnano could make some of those lithium-titanate batteries in the RCR123/AA/AAA size for us flashaholics...

THAT'S Exciting!

Fallingwater · Jun 2, 2007

BentHeadTX said:
Battery charge time 10 minutes or less
Battery capacity 88 amp hours
Discharge capacity 100C

I don't think this is plausible.
I could give the benefit of the doubt to the humongous 88 ah capacity, but then a 10 minute charge would involve feeding the battery a massive 880 amps. I'm pretty sure no household equipment could give out that sort of power, considering even the butchier non-industrial power supplies can rarely give out more than 30 amps (and even those tend to be pretty expensive). I don't even want to know how much a 880a power supply would cost, or how much of my living room it'd take up.
And 100 C discharge? That means almost nine thousand amps... from ONE battery? Sorry, but I'll believe it when I see it.

AndyTiedye · Jun 2, 2007

He said that the 10 minute charge required 480v 3 phase power.
Not something you'd have at home, but a gas station might.

BentHeadTX · Jun 3, 2007

Having a 10 minute charge rate would be great for use flashaholics using a couple of small cells, not the 88 Ah ones. I, like you--don't have 480 3-phase laying around my house but the dryer does run on 220V which is the option preferred.

As far as the 100C discharge, don't drop a wrench on the connection! 8,800 amps would really vaporize your tools quickly.

I have played around with my A123 Systems Lithium-Ion cells for my drill and they are comfortable pushing 30C discharge rates. Some people have directly wired the cells by bypassing the controller board and use them for electric scooters at 40C peak rates. No problems have been reported.

I think A123 states their cells can go 60 to 100C discharge rates so Altairnano cells are not that far off. It seems the safe lithium-ion be it LiFePO4 or Lithium Titanate can push the current levels to very high levels without a problem.

A123 makes the 3.25V 2300mAH M1 cells and I wonder why flashlight companies don't use them for their "military/LEO" lights. They don't explode and can push 60 amps and have at least 2,000 cycles of life. Maybe, just maybe it is the COST of those things. They run around $30--$35 per cell but it would be a nice option.

Maybe Peak's upcoming three SSC P4 LED light can be configured with M1 cells. Crank it to full 10 watts and draw 3.5 amps from the single cell without problems.

I use the A123 Systems cells with my DeWalt drill/saw system and have 4 of the batteries. The drill will produce a peak of 1 HP (750 watts) and is very stout. Do I need a drill that powerful? No, but the saw is a god send! I blame it on CPF to check out the new technology although the $160 per battery charge brings tears to your eyes.

I am keeping watch on Altairnano, I view their cells as the next step over A123 Systems nano-tech LiFePO4 cells in larger sizes and higher voltage per cell. Now for a CPF modder to build a portable spotlight using 4 Altairnano batteries for a 13.8V 88 Ah 25 pound backpack. Aim away from face.

AndyTiedye · Jun 3, 2007

Is there a better way to get those cells now than tearing apart DeWalt power packs?

BentHeadTX · Jun 3, 2007

AndyTiedye said:
Is there a better way to get those cells now than tearing apart DeWalt power packs?

It is cheaper to tear about DeWalt power packs than purchasing M1 cells individually. A123 sells developer cells and they run around $100 for four cells. The DeWalt packs have 10 cells in them for about $150 or so.

ikendu · Jun 4, 2007

BentHeadTX said:
It is cheaper to tear about DeWalt power packs than purchasing M1 cells individually. A123 sells developer cells and they run around $100 for four cells. The DeWalt packs have 10 cells in them for about $150 or so.

I met the owner of this electric vehicle business:

http://www.ssi-racing.com/index.asp

while on vacation in Tucson. He looked into the cheapest way to get the A123 cells and concluded buying the power packs was it.

His contact information is on the web site.

BentHeadTX · Jun 4, 2007

I did some checking on www.altairnano.com about how they charged that 35 KW/H pack and it was eye opening! They hammered the pack with 250 KW (C7) to get the charge time in under 10 minutes. Then they repeated the cycle 50 times with the C7 charge and C/2 discharge rates to prove the technology.

Makes my A123 Systems DeWalt packs look like wannabes! Although A123 Systems claims a 15 minute charge time, the DeWalt charger charges at 3.0 amps for the 32V 2300mAH pack for about a 45 minute charge.

Rumor was about 6 to 8 months ago that Peak was messing around with a LEO light that uses the A123 Systems M1 cells.

Now that we have Cree/SSC LEDs, time to get a robust cell that won't explode so I wonder how they are doing with the project? Maybe their new Volcano three SSC LEO light has that option.

I wonder why modders have not use the A123 Systems M1 cells for those 100 watt Welch-Allyn bulbed Mags? The M1 cells will laugh at the 8 to 10 amp load and ask for more.

For me, it is nanotechnology LiFePO4 or Lithium-Titanate cells. Hopefully, either new flashlights will use them or A123 Systems and altairnano will produce the RCR123 cells. I am not holding my breath.

SilverFox · Jun 4, 2007

Hello Fallingwater,

Your information on the life expectancy of Li-Ion cells is outdated. Advancements in electrode materials and electrolyte additives now has Li-Ion cells with an expected life of around 10 years.

The nano technology cells are very interesting. The RC people are beating the heck out of the A123 cells and the are able to handle everything they throw at them.

There is currently a test being run on the A123 cells charging at 12C and discharging at 22C. Over 500 cycles so far and still going strong. A previous test went over 1000 cycles using a 6C charge rate.

A 12C charge rate completes the charge in around 15 - 20 minutes. The 22C discharge is just over 50 amps.

I am very impressed.

Tom

SilverFox · Jun 4, 2007

Hello BentHeadTX,

I just got off the phone with Altair and they informed me that most of their cells are in the prismatic form. They don't have plans for an 18650 cell in the immediate future.

It was interesting to hear them refer to the A123 batteries as traditional Li-Ion batteries with a change in electrode materials. Their batteries are completely different and they are trying to overcome all of the short comings of Li-Ion batteries.

Very interesting.

Tom

ikendu · Jun 4, 2007

I'm really interested in converting a Mazda Miata (we are on our 4th one since 1992 ...all used except the first one).

I've seen at least 4 conversions on the web of the Miata but all were done with lead acid and the body is simply too small to do a decent job with batteries using lead acid.

So... I guess I'm waiting for a little less expensive and more capable battery like these new lithium batteries. We're gettin' close!

My other car runs on biodiesel (2003 VW Golf TDI). It really chafes me every time I have to buy any gasoline for the Miata! Fortunately we hardly drive it all in the winter and only very short trips on nice days in the summer.

BentHeadTX · Jun 4, 2007

SilverFox said:
Hello BentHeadTX,
It was interesting to hear them refer to the A123 batteries as traditional Li-Ion batteries with a change in electrode materials. Their batteries are completely different and they are trying to overcome all of the short comings of Li-Ion batteries.

Very interesting.

Tom

Tom,
It must be nice to just call the company and ask them (I am across the pond for another 19 days) As far as serious battery packs for electric vehicles go, the Altairnano cells look to be the winner. Feels good to know that the solution is coming online quickly and we will see some serious electric cars and hybrids rolling down the street soon. SLA/NiMH and conventional Li-Ion/Li-Po just did not do it for me. Figured A123 had the market but they are still playing around with small cells and just stringing hundreds to thousands of them together. All hail Altairnano 88 Ah 3.7V cells

There is room for both of those companies and maybe room for a third to offer 10 Ah to 40 Ah LiFePO4 cells. Thanks to exploding laptops and the price of gasoline, plenty of cash is flowing into alternative battery chemistry, ultra-capacitors and fuel cells these days.

A123 for my flashlights/battery operated tools and Altairnano for the cars and electrically assisted bicycles. They should come out with smaller 40 Ah packs next year I am . A 48.1V 40 Ah, 13 cell, 39 pound pack would be ideal. And yes, the thing will go about 35 MPH or so and use LED lighting. Should be a lot of fun to license it as an electric moped.

jtr1962 · Jun 5, 2007

BentHeadTX said:
I did some checking on www.altairnano.com about how they charged that 35 KW/H pack and it was eye opening! They hammered the pack with 250 KW (C7) to get the charge time in under 10 minutes. Then they repeated the cycle 50 times with the C7 charge and C/2 discharge rates to prove the technology.

And I'll point out that 250 kW from a 408V three-phase system is only about 350 amps from each phase. It is quite feasible to install such a charger at any service station.

This really looks like the cell that will finally make EVs mainstream. It has everything going for it-quick charging/discharging, large single cell capacity, relatively light weight, safety. I'm 100% sure once the general public gets hooked on EVs there will no going back to ICEs, ever, especially once the fossil fuel distribution infrastructure is dismantled.

I wonder why A123 systems hasn't improved their M1 cell? They claim that the technology they use can eventually offer up to four times better capacity. That would put their 26670 cell in the 9 Ah range. This seems to be another case of having a great product out the door but then sitting on your laurels.

Fallingwater · Jun 5, 2007

SilverFox said:
Hello Fallingwater,

Your information on the life expectancy of Li-Ion cells is outdated. Advancements in electrode materials and electrolyte additives now has Li-Ion cells with an expected life of around 10 years

I'll be happy to revise my ideas about the life expectancy of LiIon when I don't have to replace the batteries of my numerous gadgets every 2-3 years. So far I have consistently failed to see the great improvements you speak of in the mainstream market.
I'm sure there are LiIon cells with a life of ten or more years in various labs, and it's great to know common mortals will someday be able to buy them, but until I can get bare cells for a few bucks on sites like DX they aren't of great practical importance to me.

Anyway: I don't think the fuel system will be dismantled anytime soon.
As batteries improve and people start getting it in their heads that we need more efficient powerplants, the demand for gas will go down and that for electric power will increase. But that doesn't mean people will be ready to throw away or convert all of their vehicles. It will take a few decades before we completely shift to a different propulsion method.
How many cars from the seventies are on America's roads today, after all?

jtr1962 · Jun 5, 2007

Fallingwater said:
It will take a few decades before we completely shift to a different propulsion method.

Thing like this have historically happened way faster than that. Diesel-electric locomotives first came on the scene in the late 1930s. By the end of the 1950s they had replaced steam locomotives entirely, and all of the steam locomotive infrastructure (water towers, coaling stations, water troughs) was left to rot. If not for WWII, the change may have happened in under 15 years. It's worth noting that the railroading industry of the time was even more entrenched and resistant to change than the auto industry of the present day, yet the economics of diesels were irresistible. Right now we are with EVs where diesel-electrics were in the mid 1940s. In other words, they have been out there in small numbers for the last six to eight years but are still mostly a curiosity. My opinion based on historical trends is that we'll be seeing the last gas station in the US closed by 2020. They'll probably be as scarce as hen's teeth by 2015. The general public just isn't aware that they can go ~200 miles on $3 to $7 worth of electricity (depending upon location). You would need a 100 mpg gas car to do that at current gas prices. This isn't even factoring in the extra maintenance expense gas cars present. Once this awareness is common, the public will demand (and get) EVs in droves.

Eugene · Jun 5, 2007

I hung on to my 1988 S10 for a couple years after buying my new truck thinking I would do like this guy
http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evtruck/evtruck.html

But 200k of salt roads the cab was rusting out, there were places I could punch my hand through the steel.

Fallingwater · Jun 5, 2007

jtr1962 said:
Thing like this have historically happened way faster than that. Diesel-electric locomotives first came on the scene in the late 1930s. By the end of the 1950s they had replaced steam locomotives entirely, and all of the steam locomotive infrastructure (water towers, coaling stations, water troughs) was left to rot. If not for WWII, the change may have happened in under 15 years. It's worth noting that the railroading industry of the time was even more entrenched and resistant to change than the auto industry of the present day, yet the economics of diesels were irresistible. Right now we are with EVs where diesel-electrics were in the mid 1940s. In other words, they have been out there in small numbers for the last six to eight years but are still mostly a curiosity. My opinion based on historical trends is that we'll be seeing the last gas station in the US closed by 2020. They'll probably be as scarce as hen's teeth by 2015. The general public just isn't aware that they can go ~200 miles on $3 to $7 worth of electricity (depending upon location). You would need a 100 mpg gas car to do that at current gas prices. This isn't even factoring in the extra maintenance expense gas cars present. Once this awareness is common, the public will demand (and get) EVs in droves.

There are a lot less people involved in running a railway than cars, and locomotives are either state-owned or ran by large firms.
You can't just buy a locomotive and operate it on any random railway.

Cars are different. People aren't going to want to ditch many old (or not-so-old) cars, and I think drastically preventing gas-powered cars to run would be a hugely impopular decision for any government.

We'll probably have a period of a few decades of coexistance before gas power fades out completely. Maybe less, but I don't see fuel-powered vehicles abolished by 2020... I sure hope I can still run my dad's old BMW thirteen years from now.

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