Looking for someone to engineer a new light

KingGlamis

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*Mods and Admin, if I posted this in the wrong section please let me know. I didn't see a better forum to put this thread in.*

Our company is seriously considering producing a multi-emitter LED light for the off-road vehicle market. But in order to get the ball rolling we need expert help. I'm thinking what would be fair is for interested "qualified" individuals OR companies to give us a free quote on how much it would cost us for you to design our new light. We would need the emitters, electronics, wiring, heat transfer, everything that makes a light work engineered for us. We would then handle the production of the housing that these emitters would be housed in. This light would be powered by a 12V automotive charging system.

Interested parties please PM me and I will give you the details or give you my phone number.

Thanks all,
Doug
 

KingGlamis

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IMO 4200k HID is the way to go for off road. LED is great for running/brake lights

HID left, LED right. We want to explore the possibilites...

LEDLightBarComparison.jpg
 

johnny13oi

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I was also under the impression that HID was superior when it comes to output in the very high wattages. Hid would require less cooling and maybe electronics? A few HID's compared to many many LED's, I think the HID's would require less equipment and cooling and the equipment for HID's is easily acquireable and possible cheaper? A bunch of HID bulbs running at 35w (the ones used in cars) would put out about 3200 lumens each. And this website talks about a 400w hid bulb that puts out 42000 lumens if you need some massive lighting. http://www.fypower.org/agri/tools/products_results.html?id=100206
 

knot

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Then there's ceramic metal halide HIDs achieving CRIs in the 90s - which would be very important racing off road at speed.
 

KingGlamis

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I'm really surprised with all of the knowledge here that nobody has offered to take on this "paying" job. As to the HID comments... HIDs have been used for many years in the off-road world. Yes, they work great. But we're looking for something better. And the current belief (hope?) in the off-road world is that multi-emitter LED light bars can and will be better than the HIDs.
 

knot

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LED is still developing and I don't think it's ready to compete..


.....is constantly developing, while it is great for many everyday uses on vehicle brake lights, traffic lights and low level lighting, there are still some areas where it cannot compete. The obvious areas are flood lighting in any number of applications such as stadium lighting, car headlights and street lighting where already well developed and proven technology such as HID lighting is used. http://news.nauticexpo.com/press/underwater-lights/hid-vs-led-lighting-23482-3703.html

But then I ran into this:

HOLDER Off-Road is dedicated to providing the off-road industry with the latest in lighting technology. As in many industries, LEDs are starting to take over the jobs of other sources of light. This is the case in off-road lighting as well. HOLDER Off-Road is the first company in the world to introduce a LED off-road light powerful enough to feel comfortable at race speed. http://www.holderoffroad.com/Home.htm

Honestly, I'd rather drive with the HID. See the glare? (haze?) http://www.holderoffroad.com/FORWARD2.jpg (HID 184 Watts (Left) vs. Holder H-50 LED 194 Watts (Right) In dusty conditions you might have a "white out"
 
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KingGlamis

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LED is still developing and I don't think it's ready to compete..

Did you see the picture I posted? How is that "not ready to compete?" And according to some, that LED light bar in the pic is not using the best available tech.
 

knot

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Did you see the picture I posted? How is that "not ready to compete?" And according to some, that LED light bar in the pic is not using the best available tech.

The pic I posted is the larger of yours. The beam on the left (HID) has a much better beam and depth perception. The LED is too blue and creates a haze which looks like fog. If you're sucking someones dust from behind, you might get a lot of refection obstructing your view - besides the dust.

Yeah, probably not the best color bin for off-road.

I think the LED light center is pointed down too much in the pic. I think the center beam should be centered far ahead - especially if you're traveling at 100mph.

lightcc5.jpg
 
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KingGlamis

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The pic I posted is the larger of yours. The beam on the left (HID) has a much better beam and depth perception. The LED is too blue and creates a haze which looks like fog. If you're sucking someones dust from behind, you might get a lot of refection obstructing your view - besides the dust.

Yeah, probably not the best color bin for off-road.

I think the LED light center is pointed down too much in the pic.

I agree that the LED in the pic is not the best light output overall. Which is why we want to create something BETTER. Hence this thread. I'm not looking for criticism of the LED light pic I posted, I have nothing to do with that company. I'm looking for someone to engineer a BETTER LED light bar and they will get paid to do so.
 

Gryloc

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King Glamis,

LEDs are ready, when teamed with the right optic/reflector. You will need a tight beam for the best throw. The nice thing about LEDs is you can get just about any brightness of light just by toying with the number of emitters+reflectors, and the current. You can exceed the brightness of the standard 50W halogen in lumens with 10 LEDs, or step it up 16 and rival the standard automotive HID lights. Of course, this is using the easy to attain Cree XR-E P4-bin or Seoul P4 U-bin. Price comes to mind as being slightly troublesome if producing very small numbers of off-road lighting units (ordering from a reseller), but if you have to order in bulk right from a distributor, you will save a bunch. You can talk with Fraen, Polymer Optics, or Carlico Optics (or any other optics company) and have custom reflectors made for these. If you do not want to go custom, there is plenty of low-priced reflectors and optics for you. If you go with Seoul P4 LEDs, you can use the standard IMS27XA reflectors found at Future electronics (they cost about $1.73 each). They have a tightly focused beam that may work for you. As for Cree XR-Es, they are a little harder to find cheap reflectors for. There are plenty of optics that will fit them, and the beam produced is not that bad (for throw).

This just depends on how much money you want to make these for, and the final size of the enclosure. All of this is viable, but you just have to consider all the different factors, I suppose. I have made 2 headlight clusters using 18 LEDs each (K2s when they were not that bad), and they use Fraen's 27mm narrow FHS optic. The beam is pretty tight, and each cluster is pretty dang bright. I estimated that it puts out 1800lm at about 40,000lux. That is conservative, too. With Seouls, you can get that with just half of the emitters (the cluster would be half the size). If you use 18 Seouls, then expect twice this brightness!

I think that some will say discouraging stuff about LEDs because they compare their smaller hand-held LED flashlights with their brighter (and sometimes bigger) incandescent versions. Or, they will compare it with their car's headlights. I agree that single LEDs will never cut it anytime soon (even Osram's future "1000" lumen LED). However, once you start adding up the emitters in the cluster, the brightness starts to get extreme and they will compete with your big incandescent and HID lights.

HID is tough to beat because of the small light-emitting point and big single reflector, but do not let that get you down. You can drive higher speeds even with that super-tight beam of light. Oh, and that super-blue tint from those LEDs in the previous pictures is a big problem, but only for that manufacturer. You can easily get warmer tints that are warmer than HID (which is still pretty blue). Color rendition will be good and it will make you feel better when driving down the dirt roads. I suspect that the manufacturer of that light bar did not understand the concept of tint when he ordered those LEDs. In the eyes of us CPF'ers, you can say that they got screwed! You can do better than that. Like mentioned before, they did use some low-efficiency LEDs in that light. I seen that light bar before and discussed them. You can do better! As for light scatter, that should not be too big of a deal. With the cool (but not blue) tints, expect the same scatter as HID. A too wide of a beam can cause a distraction problem, though. If it is foggy or there is dust in the air, then you should have fog lights on your truck! You don't drive in foggy conditions with driving lights on anyways! I don't do so with my high-beams on.

-Tony
 

knot

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I'm not looking for criticism of the LED light pic I posted, I have nothing to do with that company.

You said, "Did you see the picture I posted? How is that "not ready to compete?" - so I answered you.

Notice how the HID has a narrower spot and more flood? I'm just pointing out what I think are shortcomings and what I would want in a light for off road. I do a lot of off road night driving here in Washington. At least once a week.
 
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KingGlamis

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King Glamis,

LEDs are ready, when teamed with the right optic/reflector. You will need a tight beam for the best throw. The nice thing about LEDs is you can get just about any brightness of light just by toying with the number of emitters+reflectors, and the current. You can exceed the brightness of the standard 50W halogen in lumens with 10 LEDs, or step it up 16 and rival the standard automotive HID lights. Of course, this is using the easy to attain Cree XR-E P4-bin or Seoul P4 U-bin. Price comes to mind as being slightly troublesome if producing very small numbers of off-road lighting units (ordering from a reseller), but if you have to order in bulk right from a distributor, you will save a bunch. You can talk with Fraen, Polymer Optics, or Carlico Optics (or any other optics company) and have custom reflectors made for these. If you do not want to go custom, there is plenty of low-priced reflectors and optics for you. If you go with Seoul P4 LEDs, you can use the standard IMS27XA reflectors found at Future electronics (they cost about $1.73 each). They have a tightly focused beam that may work for you. As for Cree XR-Es, they are a little harder to find cheap reflectors for. There are plenty of optics that will fit them, and the beam produced is not that bad (for throw).

This just depends on how much money you want to make these for, and the final size of the enclosure. All of this is viable, but you just have to consider all the different factors, I suppose. I have made 2 headlight clusters using 18 LEDs each (K2s when they were not that bad), and they use Fraen's 27mm narrow FHS optic. The beam is pretty tight, and each cluster is pretty dang bright. I estimated that it puts out 1800lm at about 40,000lux. That is conservative, too. With Seouls, you can get that with just half of the emitters (the cluster would be half the size). If you use 18 Seouls, then expect twice this brightness!

I think that some will say discouraging stuff about LEDs because they compare their smaller hand-held LED flashlights with their brighter (and sometimes bigger) incandescent versions. Or, they will compare it with their car's headlights. I agree that single LEDs will never cut it anytime soon (even Osram's future "1000" lumen LED). However, once you start adding up the emitters in the cluster, the brightness starts to get extreme and they will compete with your big incandescent and HID lights.

HID is tough to beat because of the small light-emitting point and big single reflector, but do not let that get you down. You can drive higher speeds even with that super-tight beam of light. Oh, and that super-blue tint from those LEDs in the previous pictures is a big problem, but only for that manufacturer. You can easily get warmer tints that are warmer than HID (which is still pretty blue). Color rendition will be good and it will make you feel better when driving down the dirt roads. I suspect that the manufacturer of that light bar did not understand the concept of tint when he ordered those LEDs. In the eyes of us CPF'ers, you can say that they got screwed! You can do better than that. Like mentioned before, they did use some low-efficiency LEDs in that light. I seen that light bar before and discussed them. You can do better! As for light scatter, that should not be too big of a deal. With the cool (but not blue) tints, expect the same scatter as HID. A too wide of a beam can cause a distraction problem, though. If it is foggy or there is dust in the air, then you should have fog lights on your truck! You don't drive in foggy conditions with driving lights on anyways! I don't do so with my high-beams on.

-Tony

Thanks for the great response Tony.
 

KingGlamis

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You said, "Did you see the picture I posted? How is that "not ready to compete?" - so I answered you.

Notice how the HID has a narrower spot and more flood? I'm just pointing out what I think are shortcomings and what I would want in a light for off road. I do a lot of off road night driving here in Washington. At least once a week.

Well then let me clarify, again. I think that LED light bar, while not perfect, certainaly gives the HID lights a run for their money. It looks brighter than the HIDs overall. I sure think it could be improved upon a bunch, which, again, is why I created this thread.
 

knot

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Well, IMO, "that" light bar isn't even in the same league. The blue does make it appear to be brighter but the light overall is not effective for the intended purpose. The HID is a near perfect beam and flood that I would feel comfortable at speed. The LED is a bright center with not much flood it would be like driving in a tunnel or it's like driving with only one headlight.

I think you should shoot for the same or similar beam characteristics.


tunnelgn7.jpg
 
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McGizmo

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Hi KingGlamis,
I think with a cluster of LED's you can do some things that can't be done with HID. With a multitude of light sources, you are not limited for instance to homogeneity in LED or optics. You can map a grid of intensity requirements and even color if you wish and build up the cluster accordingly. A poor example below where 2 of the 6 LED's have a different reflector:

CreeStripMod.jpg


You can have individual or groups of elements with specific optics disimilar from the rest and providing light in different distribution patterns.

SideShooter.jpg


With a side to side or over/ under pair of LED's you can get a "bow tie" beam:

OverUnderSideSHooter.jpg


O-U-WallBeam.jpg


The individual LED's need not have coincident axis and you can provide a partial panoramic distribution if you choose.

You could possibly blanket the near field with warmer light sources and keep to the higher color temps at the distant field where max lux is primary concern. I think an array of like LED's and optics can well compete with HID but you really aren't limited to just a like array when you go with a multiple of sources. Another weak but possibly illustrative example:

RGB-Makita.jpg


yard-flood.jpg


I think there is great potential for what you have in mind and it only takes some good ideas and decisions to outshine your present competition! Good luck to you! :thumbsup:

I realize my post hasn't been much aid in your stated quest but I think you are on a good quest and wanted to add my 2 cents anyways! :D
 

paulr

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KingGlamis, having been through this a few times before in my own field, given how underspecified your problem is, I think you're being a bit unrealistic in expecting the type of quote you're asking for; i.e., you want someone to write down a number for the whole project so you can say yes or no before you spend any money. Even if it's possible to reach such a number, it depends on so many factors that arriving at it would be enough work that offering to do it for free is unattractive. My own approach with this type of thing (in another field, I can't directly help with LED lighting design) is to say my consulting rate is $X/hour with a free initial consultation (that typically means a 1/2 hour phone call) to decide if you want to go further. But it's unlikely from your description that the 1/2 hour phone call will result in the all-up quote you want including a precise statement of work, delivery dates, etc. There would likely be more interaction required and you'd be expected to pay for that. If I were to do otherwise I'd be taking on a bunch of work speculatively. I'd only consider doing that if I were familiar with your company and its track record and felt reasonably confident of getting the final deal.
 
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