Caving etiquette and flashlights ... is there such a thing as being too bright?

To folks who cave regularly on this list. Just wondering if there is such a thing as a caving etiquette that states: "Thou shall not bring too much light into the hole" ? I know I need to bring LOTS of flashlights into the hole to serve as backup in-case flashlights fail. BUT ... how about the power of each light?

I've been prepping for an exciting caving trip and I may be overdoing it with my multi lumen LED lithium powered headlights.

Also, is bringing red lights into a cave OK, normal, acceptable or taboo?

Any tips and suggestions welcome.

ltiu said:

To folks who cave regularly on this list. Just wondering if there is such a thing as a caving etiquette that states: "Thou shall not bring too much light into the hole" ? I know I need to bring LOTS of flashlights into the hole to serve as backup in-case flashlights fail. BUT ... how about the power of each light?

I've been prepping for an exciting caving trip and I may be overdoing it with my multi lumen LED lithium powered headlights.

Also, is bringing red lights into a cave OK, normal, acceptable or taboo?

Any tips and suggestions welcome.

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Hmm, well, I think as long as you're not blinding people it's not a big deal. Though if the space is tight you're liable to find that you'll blind yourself even. Basically if it's so bright you can't see much of anything beyond it's main light pools then it might be too bright. You should be able to see at least a bit from the light being reflected out of your beam.

Yeah if it's a very large cave then there's no such thing as too bright. if your in a confined space then there is such a thing as too bright. just use your common sense. you don't want 200 lumens to look a few feet in front of you.....

It can be a problem for your companions if your companions all have dim lights. Its best to have multi stage lights. Once your eyes are adjusted 10 lumens is perfectly adequate for navigating rough terrain, but you won't be able to see high ceilings or down dark pits.

If you give your eyes a chance to adjust to the lower light levels they will. (It takes about a half hour)

do what ever you want but dont be suprised if you get hit for shining the light in others eyes on accident, rule of the cave.
for big cathedals underground i have seen maxabeams used. but most of the time youll want 15ish lumens for the tight and twisty junk.

mossyoak said:

but most of the time youll want 15ish lumens for the tight and twisty junk.

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When you say 15'ish, you mean 15'ish claimed or actual lumens? If claimed, then it could be lower, right? My headlight claims 21 lumens on low. So does that mean it is 15'ish actual and fits your recommendations? I just don't want to get hit inside a low, narrow, dark, muddy cave crawling with insects and snakes.

ltiu said:

When you say 15'ish, you mean 15'ish claimed or actual lumens? If claimed, then it could be lower, right? My headlight claims 21 lumens on low. So does that mean it is 15'ish actual and fits your recommendations? I just don't want to get hit inside a low, narrow, dark, muddy cave crawling with insects and snakes.

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You won't see snakes past the first few feet. Too cold. After that maybe cave cricket here and there, not much else. A few bats but they generally keep to themselves. Unless you are in madagascar, I hear they have some cave crocodiles believe it or not.

I assume he means 15 actual lumens. I mostly switch between 3 and 12 actual lumens for 95% of the cave. And thats a floody beam. Your light is much more concentrated.

I was wondering this myself, not that I ever go caving.

What if you had such a good light that it just filled the area with a smooth flood and didn't blind anyone? Would people get upset that their experience is being ruined? Kind of like camping with huge fluorescent lights instead of going by the meager glow of the camp fire. Would there be less adventure and therefore, take some of the fun away from it?

My brother-in-law was chided for using a 4D maglite in a cave. His light was by far the brightest since everyone else carried 2D plastic dollar bin lights. Apparently there was a guide or someone that felt responsible for the cave's preservation that claimed his light could wake up bats hibernating for the winter. If awoken, the bats would be unable to find enough food and would starve. This would only apply in certain areas in certain times of the year so I wouldn't worry about it now, but it sounds reasonable so I would consider it down the road.

mudman cj said:

My brother-in-law was chided for using a 4D maglite in a cave. His light was by far the brightest since everyone else carried 2D plastic dollar bin lights. Apparently there was a guide or someone that felt responsible for the cave's preservation that claimed his light could wake up bats hibernating for the winter. If awoken, the bats would be unable to find enough food and would starve. This would only apply in certain areas in certain times of the year so I wouldn't worry about it now, but it sounds reasonable so I would consider it down the road.

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OK, thanks for this tip. Greatly appreciated.

I will make sure to bring my 1x 5mm LED 3x coin cell battery key chain light rated at 1-2 lumen, just in-case I cannot use my FENIX

ltiu said:

When you say 15'ish, you mean 15'ish claimed or actual lumens? If claimed, then it could be lower, right? My headlight claims 21 lumens on low. So does that mean it is 15'ish actual and fits your recommendations? I just don't want to get hit inside a low, narrow, dark, muddy cave crawling with insects and snakes.

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that head lamp will be fine, although ive never come across a snake in all my years as a spelunker (to cold i guess)
the brightness isnt really a problem just getting it shined in your eyes sucks.

mossyoak said:

that head lamp will be fine, although ive never come across a snake in all my years as a spelunker (to cold i guess)
the brightness isnt really a problem just getting it shined in your eyes sucks.

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Too cold? Not in Texas! Not in July!

what i meant is that snakes would rather be outside of the cave wheres its hotter, since the caves are noticably colder than outside.

ltiu said:

I know I need to bring LOTS of flashlights into the hole to serve as backup in-case flashlights fail.

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Lots? Unless you're caving on your own, one is OK, two's a good idea, three is quite enough and any more than that is starting to get a little bit silly.

You won't die in a cave through lack of light unless all of everybody's lights have failed. I once came out of a cave (admittedly an easy one) with only one working carbide light between seven of us (note to anyone about to say I'm nuts, we COULD have fixed other carbides which had got gummed up, and we had plenty of lighters and matches - and anyway we were students)

Also, is bringing red lights into a cave OK, normal, acceptable or taboo?

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Can't recall seeing anybody using red lights in a cave, but I can't see why anyone would mind.

Never considered caving etiquette, just basic etiquette one should observe anyway.

I'm a red light freak for dark adaptation and I have done my share of spelunking, but to be honest, red light in a cave is kinda pointless. Red is all about preserving dark adaptation and I have let my eyes become completely dark adapted in caves. But having dark adapted eyes in a cave is useless. Caves are soooooo dark that no matter how well dark adapted your eyes get you can't see *anything*; even something inches in front of your eyes. So what's the point?

Ironically, what got me into "bright lights" was spelunking. I got into a local cave that had fairly large caverns and really wanted to be able to see the entire cavern. The dimmer, floodier headlamps are perfect for climbing around but can't throw well enough to see caverns. My first SF was purchased explicitly to handle this.

Sure wish there were some caves to explore somewhere around eastern Nebraska....

Too much light (bright) depends on the cave. There is NEVER such a thing as too many lights. Until I switched everything to LEDs I had usually 14 lights in my cave pack. Sure some were pretty small weak lights. The NSS recommends 3 sources of light and most cavers will always have at least 3. If not LED, have spare bulbs. Also have enough batteries for your main light (headlamp) to last 3 times the planned length of the trip, assuming this is a wild cave. A typical rescue takes 5-12 hours to get setup and start moving in. Add to that the amount of time you will have to wait until you are missed and you get the picture.

Having lights that will step down are great. I cave with a PT Apex and use my P3D to spot things. Both can be fairly dim and then step up to spot ceilings or formations. Don't shine the light into peoples eyes, if using a headlamp don't look directly at them or you will be shining the lamp into their eyes.

A helmet is HIGHLY recommended. Cleaning blood and hair from the ceiling of a cave is pretty annoying.

As far as animals you could see snakes in the entrance area. In the dark zone you are most likely to see crickets, salamanders, small stuff, and of course bats. The light shouldn't affect them much. I was once in a tour cave and the guide told the crowd that LEDs are no good for caving for several reasons. First they aren't bright enough, and second pulsing of the light confuses the bats. Funny thing that same summer a big topic at the NSS convention was the PT Apex and the Stenlights as being the new standard in cave lights. I want to go back and find the guy and compare his maglight to my P3D.

Anyway bring all the lights you want. Just remember you have to carry them. You will want at least 1 head mounted light so your hands can be free to help you navigate the cave.

Any other questions PM me.

R11GS said:

Never considered caving etiquette, just basic etiquette one should observe anyway.

I'm a red light freak for dark adaptation and I have done my share of spelunking, but to be honest, red light in a cave is kinda pointless. Red is all about preserving dark adaptation and I have let my eyes become completely dark adapted in caves. But having dark adapted eyes in a cave is useless. Caves are soooooo dark that no matter how well dark adapted your eyes get you can't see *anything*; even something inches in front of your eyes. So what's the point?

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+1
Good point.

I recently heard of a cave near home that is 10,800 feet in length and takes 15 hours to go in and out (round-trip). Now to me that's some serious caving. I would need a light that can last 15 or more hours on a single set of fresh batteries since it would be troublesome to change batteries while inside a cave - is this a valid point?

As CaveGimp says, if I need enough battery supply to last 3x the expect time in the cave, that would mean I will need enough batteries to last 45 hours. That's a lot of batteries or maybe I will have lights that can really sip battery juice.