Flicker, Flicker, Die

LukeA

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I have a Cree P4 star from DX in my aspheric Mag, and yesterday it began to flicker, and today the flicker became more exaggerated, turned into a blinking, and the emitter died. What caused that? Does it make a difference that the emitter dome is slightly delaminated from the silicone? It was like that when I got it. I was running it on 3 AA NiMHs direct drive, but it never turned blue, however it did smoke a little at the end. Was it too much current or something else? Are 4-bondwire Crees less susceptible to overcurrent?
 
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LukeA

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sounds like a classic over-heated LED. the heat isolation may be to blame here. Did you use thermal paste/epoxy liberally when you put the star on?

No. I didn't use any. I screwed the star directly to an aluminum plate that transfers heat to the Mag body. I have some thermal epoxy now. When I get a new star (higher bin) I'll epoxy it to the aluminum, and epoxy the aluminum to the Mag body. I'll still be running the star at over 2A (I think. It depends on the Vf of the emitter at current/temp. and voltage drop under load with the cells)
 

mmmflashlights

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I'll still be running the star at over 2A

I'd be worried about a lack of good heatsinking + thermal paste at 1A, let alone 2A. Even with a lot of thermal paste, I'd never try running it that hard unless the light was very well designed for dissipating heat, and I don't believe a Maglite would fall into that category.

How long were you able to use the LED before this happened?

P.S. - You mention running the LED direct-drive, the current is probably close to 1A (maybe less), not 2A.
 
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LukeA

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I'd be worried about a lack of good heatsinking + thermal paste at 1A, let alone 2A. Even with a lot of thermal paste, I'd never try running it that hard unless the light was very well designed for dissipating heat, and I don't believe a Maglite would fall into that category.

How long were you able to use the LED before this happened?

P.S. - You mention running the LED direct-drive, the current is probably close to 1A (maybe less), not 2A.

I'll have to test the current when I put in the new emitter. I have to get a new fuse for my DMM (Do not stick DMM test leads into wall outlet).
 

wintermute

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sounds like a classic over-heated LED. the heat isolation may be to blame here. Did you use thermal paste/epoxy liberally when you put the star on?

First of all - don't use thermal compound or epoxy "liberally" use as little as possible in order to just fell the fill the spaces between the star and the aluminum plate. If you apply a bunch of paste, it will act as an insulator instead of a heatsink compound. Thick amounts of compound are bad, thick amounts of epoxy/adhesive is worse.

No. I didn't use any. I screwed the star directly to an aluminum plate that transfers heat to the Mag body. I have some thermal epoxy now. When I get a new star (higher bin) I'll epoxy it to the aluminum, and epoxy the aluminum to the Mag body. I'll still be running the star at over 2A (I think. It depends on the Vf of the emitter at current/temp. and voltage drop under load with the cells)

If you can screw the star into the aluminum plate, then you don't need any type of thermal epoxy...just thermal compound. You only use epoxy/adhesive if there is a chance that he emitter/star can separate from the heatsink. Since you have screws to hold it onto the heatsink, you should not use the epoxy. Also, if you use the epoxy between the aluminum plate and the mag body then you'll never be able to remove the heatsink plate.

You don't need epoxy/adhesive, you just need some heatsink compound. Arctic Silver 3, Arctic Silver 5, or Arctic Alumina. Any of those three will work fine. The difference between the heatsinking properties of the three is mere fractions of one degree Celsius. I'd use the AA or AS3 over AS5 due to cost though...the tube of AS5 is super small compared to the others...same weight, but the AS5 is super dense compared to the AA and AS3. You said you have the epoxy now, does that mean you have Arctic Alumina adhesive/epoxy?? If so, get the AA compound...when you need to use the epoxy on something, use 75% AA epoxy and 25% AA compound. At this mixture the epoxy will still hold as long as you need, but it will also separate if you need to remove the item at a later date.

Between the star and the aluminum heatsink plate use as little as possible so it completely covers the star. Do this...squirt a little bit out, and use the tip of the heatsink compound tube to spread it around. Then put the star in place where you are going to screw it down, push down firmly. A little of the heatsink compound may come squishing out the side. Then pull the star off - check and see if there are areas of the star which did not have the compound on it. If the star has a thin layer of compound on all surfaces, put it back down and screw it it. If you need to add a little dab more, use as little as possible to make sure the last few bits will be covered and install it. This is not an area where more is better! More is definitely worse in this case and will equate to a worse thermal transfer.

Then between the aluminum heatsink and the mag body - do the same with the compound...although due to the surface area and the distance from the emitter you can use a little more compound if needed. But, from the information you have said in this thread - you really don't want to use any epoxy/adhesive for this job.

I'd be worried about a lack of good heatsinking + thermal paste at 1A, let alone 2A. Even with a lot of thermal paste, I'd never try running it that hard unless the light was very well designed for dissipating heat, and I don't believe a Maglite would fall into that category.

How long were you able to use the LED before this happened?

P.S. - You mention running the LED direct-drive, the current is probably close to 1A (maybe less), not 2A.

Ummm yeah, I am going to have to agree with mmmflashlights here...2A is going to kill most any emitter unless you have it hooked up to a peltier cooling device. Nobody runs a Cree at 2A...except for Newbie, but this was his heatsink:

Heatsink.jpg


So, a thin layer of AA, AS3, AS5 compound between star and heatsink, thin later of AA, AS3, AS5 between the heatsink and Mag body. And find out how much current you are pulling for sure. I think the biggest problem here was bad thermal transfer between star and aluminum heatsink...although as mmmflashlights said - if you are trying to run 2A, it doesn't matter what you do to help with thermal runaway...it would be like trying to knock over a building by throwing a pebble at it.
 
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Nitroz

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I have a Cree P4 star from DX in my aspheric Mag, and yesterday it began to flicker, and today the flicker became more exaggerated, turned into a blinking, and the emitter died. What caused that? Does it make a difference that the emitter dome is slightly delaminated from the silicone? It was like that when I got it. I was running it on 3 AA NiMHs direct drive, but it never turned blue, however it did smoke a little at the end. Was it too much current or something else? Are 4-bondwire Crees less susceptible to overcurrent?

Was this running from 3 Cells? If so, it could have been pulling in excess of 2 amps since the VF of some XR-Es are in the low threes and you were supplying 4.5 volts.(If using three cells DD)
 

wintermute

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Was this running from 3 Cells? If so, it could have been pulling in excess of 2 amps since the VF of some XR-Es are in the low threes and you were supplying 4.5 volts.(If using three cells DD)

Well, we have to assume if he is running DD he is using 3 x NiMH AAs...not 3 alkaline AAs. At least, I hope we can assume that. 3 x NiMH fully charged in series could still be >3.6V under load. Also, even though alkaline batteries are 1.5V, under load they drop...sometimes considerably. So 3xAlkalines would most likely not be 4.5V under load.

But still, I understand where you are coming from and just hope that he didn't use 3 x alkaline to DD a Cree.
 

IsaacHayes

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I've ran a cree at 2amp before. I used a finned pentium heatsink. It wasn't super huge nor small. I used the bare emitter with corners clipped for isolation and a super thin layer of AA epoxy which was pushed down until the emitter "bit" into the heatsink. The heatsink got luke warm.

Using a MCPCB star will worsen heat transfer versus just bare emitter.
 

LukeA

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Was this running from 3 Cells? If so, it could have been pulling in excess of 2 amps since the VF of some XR-Es are in the low threes and you were supplying 4.5 volts.(If using three cells DD)
I'm using 3 NiMHs, so just north of 3.6V.

@wintermute

I know I don't need the epoxy, but I don't have any plain old thermal compound. Plus the piece of aluminum it's mounted to was scrap before this project.


And I would have been running the emitter with a (1A) regulator, if it hadn't decided to start converting 3VDC @?A (from 2 D cells) into 0.08V + heat.
 

wintermute

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I've ran a cree at 2amp before. I used a finned pentium heatsink. It wasn't super huge nor small. I used the bare emitter with corners clipped for isolation and a super thin layer of AA epoxy which was pushed down until the emitter "bit" into the heatsink. The heatsink got luke warm.

Using a MCPCB star will worsen heat transfer versus just bare emitter.

OK - so you didn't use a huge heatsink like Newbie - but you did use a finned pentium heatsink. Did you use this in a flashlight body - or was it exposed to the air? How long did you run said Cree at 2A?

At least you used a super thin layer of epoxy and didn't use it liberally as some would suggest.

I know I don't need the epoxy, but I don't have any plain old thermal compound. Plus the piece of aluminum it's mounted to was scrap before this project.

But aren't you ordering a new Cree anyhow? Order some Arctic Alumina compound while you are waiting for the new emitter. Here on eBay - this seller has it for $6 shipped. If you want to use AA epoxy that's your call - but if you need to remove the emitter again it can be a big pain with AA epoxy. Just make sure you use a thin layer as IssacHayes and I have recommended.

And I would have been running the emitter with a (1A) regulator, if it hadn't decided to start converting 3VDC @?A (from 2 D cells) into 0.08V + heat.

You can't run many drivers at 1A with 2 x NiMH or Alkaline batteries. You were probably using a driver designed for lithium cells or something. What driver were you using??
 

Nitroz

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Well, we have to assume if he is running DD he is using 3 x NiMH AAs...not 3 alkaline AAs. At least, I hope we can assume that. 3 x NiMH fully charged in series could still be >3.6V under load. Also, even though alkaline batteries are 1.5V, under load they drop...sometimes considerably. So 3xAlkalines would most likely not be 4.5V under load.

But still, I understand where you are coming from and just hope that he didn't use 3 x alkaline to DD a Cree.

Yes, I am aware that alkies sag under load. However, he did say that this was an aspherical lens, so I assume that this is either a C or D mag with 3 cells rather than two.
 

wintermute

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BBNexgen 1000

From The Sandwich Shoppe's webpage on the BB NG:

BB NG Specs said:
Note1: Safe mode is ~1.5A input current. If output doesn't go into full regulation it falls back to safe mode. For a Nexgen 750mA or Nexgen 1A, this critical starting voltage is ~3.4V. Input voltages above this will start the regulator into full constant current regulation and it will regulate down to ~2V input. A Nexgen 500mA will almost always start in full regulation mode.

Requires 3.4V minimum. And when it comes to driving 1 x Cree at 1A, the NG1000 has a Vin overdrive voltage of Vout + 0.7V...so you would have to provide it with a battery source between 3.4V and 4.4V in order to run the driver to work. If you want to run regulated off of 2 x D cell NiMH (or even D-cell alkalines) get a VIP-1000 from TaskLED. It will definitely run with 2 x NiMH - and I asked George about it the other day and said 2xAlkaline should even work fine. He only has a few more of these drivers, so get them fast. There are 16 left. Then you can leave all of this DD stuff behind.
 

wintermute

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Yes, I am aware that alkies sag under load. However, he did say that this was an aspherical lens, so I assume that this is either a C or D mag with 3 cells rather than two.

But he already said he was using 3xAA batteries. Not 3xC or 3xD batteries. From that I took it that he was using 3xAAs and 3xAA Alkaline batteries could sag considerably under a DD load. I was also really hoping that he knew that 3x alkaline would be too high. I even said, "But still, I understand where you are coming from and just hope that he didn't use 3 x alkaline to DD a Cree." So it wasn't like I was faulting your statement at all.

Edit: ADD Actually he even said it was 3xAA NiMH in the very first post, "I was running it on 3 AA NiMHs direct drive"
 
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Nitroz

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I was running 3xAA NiMHs in D holders.

Hmmm...that is odd, but still possible that it could have smoked it as NiMh batteries do not sag as much.

What wintermute is saying is a safe way to go, use a regulator.
 

wintermute

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3AA batteries in 2 D holders? Or 3AA batteries in 1 D holder and a dummy D-Cell?? We need more info about your battery setup. A complete breakdown of how the batteries were installed.

Unless you just want to skip this stuff and get the VIP-1000 from TaskLED
 

Nitroz

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3AA batteries in 2 D holders? Or 3AA batteries in 1 D holder and a dummy D-Cell?? We need more info about your battery setup. A complete breakdown of how the batteries were installed.

Unless you just want to skip this stuff and get the VIP-1000 from TaskLED

Wow! If it was 3aaa holder x 2, now wonder it smoked.:eek:
 

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