Calling all economic experts

Status
Not open for further replies.

thesurefire

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Messages
1,081
Location
U.S.A.
Last night the US dollar was scraping what is said to be the all important 'shelf' level of 80. This morning Its back up to nearly 80.8, and gold and silver and down. What on earth could possibly cause a .8 increase overnight? It doesn't make sense to me.

Here is one chart, updated every few minutes

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DX&v=w

Here is a chart to give you an idea of how the dollars been doing in the recent past.

http://www.fxstreet.com/rates-charts/usdollar-index/
 

js

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
Messages
5,793
Location
Upstate New York
thesurefire,

I don't know the answer to that question, but I can tell you that it won't be all that long before the dollar loses a lot more buying power. Every month billions of USD go out of the country--essentially I.O.U's to foreign entities--and those dollars are held because it is thought that the dollar is a good investment, a safe holding for value. In Mexico, when I was there, people would take USD happily. But once the illusion of the strong US economic situation disappears, people will be scrambling to get something, anything, for all those dollars, and they will all come home to roost, and the fed won't be able to do a damn thing about it. Contracting the money supply by raising prime, or increasing M1 won't help in the least--on the contrary. It's going to happen sometime in the next 10 years, in my opinion, and when it does there is going to be a serious revaluation of goods and services.

It's astonishing how bamboozled the public is about very basic issues such as inflation and the basis of our money supply. People think that inflation is "the natural result of an expanding economy" when the exact opposite is true! Inflation results when the power of the economy decreases for the same money supply, or when the money supply increases faster than the economy grows. We have inflation because the Fed is increasing the money supply more than is warranted. This is essentially stealing value, or if you prefer, it is taxation. However, as the Federal Reserve is not a government agency, nor is there anything held in reserve, it's not really taxation per se. But whatever.

Or people have this idea that when the bank lends you money that they are taking their depositors hard earned cash and lending it out to you, and thus that they need to take care regarding the soundness of the loan.

Not true.

The money that you are given is actually created. The strange and uncanny truth is that the money is the debt; the debt is the money. If all debt, including the National Debt, were paid off, there would be no money left. Not Federal Reserve Notes, anyway. The Fed controls when and how the banks can create money out of nothing via various policies, and this allows the Fed to dramatically increase or decrease the money supply and spending power of consumers.

The Fed and the government both have a vested interest in keeping the price of gold and other precious metals low, and they have reserves and powers on hand specifically do accomplish this. But they've been unable to keep gold down, and it's been on the rise for about the last decade. I think the low point was about 265 USD per ounce and it's now about 675. It should, by rights, be about two or three thousand dollars an ounce, given the current purchasing power of the dollar, so gold is still a good investment. Although, if the economy completely collapses, the best thing would be a self-sufficient estate like a small farm, owned free and clear. (or, obviously, BOTH).

I've felt for years that real estate prices and the attitudes of people towards mortgages and home ownership have been INSANE. I had one guy here at work telling me I should buy a home (this was a couple or so years ago) because "money was cheap". What he meant was that lending rates were low, historically low, and thus you could get a low monthly payment ("cheap") on any given sum ("money"). I have to say that that one sentence flabergasted me. It's not that it was any revelation about economics to me, but it WAS a revelation about peoples attitudes towards money and loans.

Most people are only looking at the low monthly payments. That's just about all they see. As if the PRINCIPLE + INTEREST + TAXES + INSURANCE summed up over the 20 or 30 years of repayment were insignificant. You have people buying a house with zero money down! CRAZY! These people aren't home owners! No more than someone who rents! The bank owns their house, just like the land lord owns the house of a renter.

There have been record foreclosures this past year, all due to people over extending themselves and then being unable to keep up when the prime rate went up. Not to mention all those people who took out second mortgages on their homes, which means they monetized their houses. There was a whole lot of money injected into the economy just from all they people that did that--but it didn't represent any actual increase of production or service value in the economy.

Insane. Insane. Insane.

And then there are all the people graduating from colleges with HUGE debt--like $80,000 or $100,000 even--and without any high powered skill to balance that debt out. $80K for a liberal arts degree? WTF? I love the liberal arts and don't for a second think that everyone should be a doctor or an engineer, but COME ON! You can educate yourself and save the 80 grand, or go to a cheaper college. When I went to school, I paid about $5,000 a year, and this included room and board, and I feel pretty happy about my education, and would definitely not have increased my debt fourfold in exchange for graduating from Harvard or MIT or Cornell instead.

And, even more crazy, there are a lot of people who really would be happier and more suited for a trade or skill, such as training to be a plumber or an electrician or a carpenter, and so on. You can even get trained for free, or even get paid to learn the trade, by apprenticing. Why does everyone have to go to college now? It's dilluting the value of a college education, and is dumbing down the curriculum because the colleges can't count on the same minimum level of education and ability that they used to.

There will be signs, I suspect. If I ever hear that China is no longer pegging their currency to ours, that will be a scary bit of news for example.

But, I'll cut myself off as I still haven't answered the question posed by this thread, nor will I be able to anytime today.
 

Manzerick

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Messages
2,793
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
This could be final straw. I keep seeing the issue as multi-facated...

Picture if "Joey Bag of Donuts" refinanced his house and pulle dout say 50K in equity. WItht hat equity he buys, a car, boat and pays off his credit cards. This stimulates the economy but... at what long-term cost?

If Joey were to default and forclose on his house, what is the affect? Reduced economic activity as poor Joey won't be able to take out a loan nor have any real assets. if Joey was say mid-forties in age... Where does this hit put him during his retirement years?

i get very sad to think of this "self-sustaining economy" and the real world people who jus tdidn't know any better :(


I've felt for years that real estate prices and the attitudes of people towards mortgages and home ownership have been INSANE. I had one guy here at work telling me I should buy a home (this was a couple or so years ago) because "money was cheap". What he meant was that lending rates were low, historically low, and thus you could get a low monthly payment ("cheap") on any given sum ("money"). I have to say that that one sentence flabergasted me. It's not that it was any revelation about economics to me, but it WAS a revelation about peoples attitudes towards money and loans.

Most people are only looking at the low monthly payments. That's just about all they see. As if the PRINCIPLE + INTEREST + TAXES + INSURANCE summed up over the 20 or 30 years of repayment were insignificant. You have people buying a house with zero money down! CRAZY! These people aren't home owners! No more than someone who rents! The bank owns their house, just like the land lord owns the house of a renter.
 

jtr1962

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
7,505
Location
Flushing, NY
I've felt for years that real estate prices and the attitudes of people towards mortgages and home ownership have been INSANE.
At the risk of taking the thread further off topic I feel the same. Just because the cost of money (i.e. interest rates) have been historically low, people have thought nothing of paying ludicrous prices for real estate. My parent's house, where I currently live, cost $52,000 in 1978. Had the price kept pace with general inflation it might be worth $150,000 now. Instead, the price actually peaked at about $650,000 a year ago, and now it's worth maybe $575,000. As we experience further price deflation, all these people who bought homes with no money down and/or interest only payments will actually be owing more than their home is worth. This is a frightening prospect because most mortgages have a clause where they can call in the portion of the loan above and beyond the net worth of the home immediately. So far this clause hasn't been used, but could be if the banks need money. So what happens if someone who bought a home like the one I'm in a year ago gets the loan called for $75,000? They certainly won't have it. The bank will be stuck owning a home it doesn't really want. The former tenant (really, that's what they were) will have lost any money put into it. I see a huge real estate collapse around the corner, followed by an even larger economic collapse. The stock market is ridiculously high right now given that the economy is at best mediocre. Look for a large correction soon, and then a long, downward trend.

Not to mention all those people who took out second mortgages on their homes, which means they monetized their houses. There was a whole lot of money injected into the economy just from all they people that did that--but it didn't represent any actual increase of production or service value in the economy.
Amen to that. This is a topic my mom and I often discuss. The so-called economic boom in recent years was fueled solely by a hot real estate market, which in turn was mostly driven by real-estate speculators. People making $50,000 a year were able to live like they made $100,000. That house of cards is coming down now. And as you said in the interim the boom hardly created a thing of lasting value to the economy. There was no huge investment in public works projects, or alternate energy, or any of 100 things which could have kept the economy going down the road. I see tough times ahead.
 

greenlight

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 18, 2004
Messages
4,298
Location
chill valley
I keep hearing about loan defaults and mortgages people can't pay. That's going to really mess up the economy, but some people are going to end up getting some nice cheap houses to rent out. So far the prices in my area haven't gone down, but they're not soaring like they used to.
 

js

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
Messages
5,793
Location
Upstate New York
Manzerick and jtr1962,

Nice posts! Wow! I'm having a moment here. So rarely do I talk about this sort of stuff with people who don't in large part disagree with me that I've come to expect disagreement, and having to explain why my wife and I are still renting. My mom especially thinks I'm crazy for not having purchased a house and keeps thinking and talking about all the money I am "throwing away" by renting. And I'm like, "Look, mom, if I bought any kind of house that we would be willing to live in, the interest, taxes, and insurance payments of the mortgage would exceed what we are paying for rent (for at least a decade), and then on top of that, we would have to pay utilities (which are right now included in our rent) and upkeep and maintenance on the house. And worse than that, I wouldn't have the extra money I would want to make changes and improvements to a not-so-great house. We'd be strapped just making the mortgage payments and keeping the house up."

It's like people don't understand that when you are paying on a 20 year (or God forbid, a 30 year) mortgage that very very little of the payment is actually going towards the principle in the first 5 years of the mortgage. You end up paying, if I remember correctly, almost three times what the "cost" of the house is.

And, then, as you say so very well, jtr:

Just because the cost of money (i.e. interest rates) have been historically low, people have thought nothing of paying ludicrous prices for real estate. My parent's house, where I currently live, cost $52,000 in 1978. Had the price kept pace with general inflation it might be worth $150,000 now. Instead, the price actually peaked at about $650,000 a year ago, and now it's worth maybe $575,000. As we experience further price deflation, all these people who bought homes with no money down and/or interest only payments will actually be owing more than their home is worth. This is a frightening prospect because most mortgages have a clause where they can call in the portion of the loan above and beyond the net worth of the home immediately.

Ain't it the truth! Even around here in Ithaca NY house prices are significantly inflated above the real worth of the house. All because low interest rates are allowing people to "buy" houses that they really can't afford, which drives up the prices due to the competition. I see this houses for $90,000, and I'm like "WTF? That thing is a shack! 90 grand for THAT? Forget it."

I figure I'm better off renting and taking the extra money and investing it in Gold and gold stocks. We'll see who's right in a decade, but I can tell you this, my gold isn't going to evaporate over night and become worthless. Perhaps it won't perform as well as other investments, but it's certainly a safety net if nothing else.

Anyway, yeah, Off-Topic stuff again I guess. But, on topic, I will ask my dad and see if he knows why/how the dollar took a .8 increase.

On another note, I heard the Fed stopped publishing statistics on M1, M2, and M3. Is that correct? If so, that's at least as disturbing as how they keep messing with the list of goods in the CPI, and what they exclude, all to make the inflation rate appear smaller than it is.
 

TedTheLed

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
2,021
Location
Ventura, CA.
Leon would know.

Some f you may have read the posts on the economics of capitalism by my cat, Leon, was it a couple years ago? Anyway the posts seem to have gotten lost in the CPF shuffle, if anyone knows of a copy I would love to have one -- or know where it is if it can be found onliine..(you can tell it's Leon's post because he "meows" every once in a while)

In the meantime I will ask Leon for his comments when he wakes up, and after he eats, hopefully he'll have time to answer before he takes his after-dinner nap..
 

tygger

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
762
Location
Florida
.

On another note, I heard the Fed stopped publishing statistics on M1, M2, and M3. Is that correct? If so, that's at least as disturbing as how they keep messing with the list of goods in the CPI, and what they exclude, all to make the inflation rate appear smaller than it is.

They stopped reporting the M3 figures from what I've read. BTW, a website that has great info about monetary policy, economics, etc. is lewrockwell.com. They have new daily articles from people like, Murray Rothbard (archived), Gary North, Bill Bonner, etc, etc. Anyway, there's much informative discussion on the fed's manipulation of monetary policy.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/
 

PEU

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Messages
3,600
Location
Buenos Aires / Argentina (I like ribs)
Last night the US dollar was scraping what is said to be the all important 'shelf' level of 80. This morning Its back up to nearly 80.8, and gold and silver and down. What on earth could possibly cause a .8 increase overnight? It doesn't make sense to me.

It seems you are playing the Forex market, take a look at this posts they are a nice tutorial/explanation of the market.

I would never enter it, far too risky for a common investor.


Pablo
 

thesurefire

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Messages
1,081
Location
U.S.A.
It seems you are playing the Forex market, take a look at this posts they are a nice tutorial/explanation of the market.

I would never enter it, far too risky for a common investor.


Pablo

No, I don't do forex, other then buying currency to places I will be going at a good rate.

I was just looking at the euro exchange rate for a possible trip and it was high, this prompted me to investigate more.
 

js

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
Messages
5,793
Location
Upstate New York
Thought I'd bump this to the top in light of recent economic events and announcements. Gold is currently at $900/oz. and the Fed has just allowed some rather drastic and very public measures to happen in regards to large banks and their ownership. They wouldn't have allowed this to happen if any of their usual economic control methods were working.

This year is going to be bad for the US economy and the US dollar. Very bad. That's my prediction. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. The number of foreclosures on houses is also going to be way up, and real estate will continue to fall, on the whole. Not good, but you can't cheat reality for ever. You can only delay the consequences.
 

kelmo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
3,092
Location
Sacramento
Remember back in the late 70's early 80's when all those South American countries defaulted on their loans? Bank of America almost ceased to exist. Hell, even the State of New York went belly up. President Ford had to bail them out. Well the same thing is happening all over again. Instead of Venezuela defaulting on a loan its your neighbor(s)! Corporate greed gives us a very short term memory.

Back when the Euro became a currency our M1/M2 was 666 billion dollars (I'm not being cheeky with that figure, go look it up) and the Euro was worth $0.85. Now the M1/M2 is about 1.2 trillion dollars and the Euro is crusing around $1.48. It's no stretch of the imagination that the dollar is weaker. The intrinsic value of our economy hasn't changed, we just have twice as many dollars to account for it.
 

js

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
Messages
5,793
Location
Upstate New York
kelmo,

That's it in a nutshell. But it has to be modified with the VAST number of USD that are being held in "reserve" by foreign entities. If (or rather when) those entities start trying to get something of value for their dollars, THEN you will REALLY see more and more dollars chasing the same amount of goods, driving up the prices (i.e. inflation).

There are a LOT of "IOU" 's out there that will come home to roost. Perhaps the plan all along was/is to manipulate the money until the last possilbe moment, then let the dollar crash, basically making the IOU's worthless, and making draconian economic measures look acceptable in the eyes of the world's various governments. It's a way to reneg on the IOU without actually catching the moral flak and world disapproval that would normally incur if we just up and said "all those foreign investors who have USD, too bad. We won't accept your dollars anymore."

Who knows what will happen. But it won't be pretty, that's for sure.
 

kelmo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
3,092
Location
Sacramento
I think that our dept is a controlling factor. If for example the Saudi's want to cash in the 5% stake in our national debt that they control, someone in Washington will say, "Sure, you can have your money only if we get oil for $30/barrel for the next 10 years."

You know the saying, "Hold your friends close, and your enemies closer." That is what we are doing with our debt. Only very large economies, economies that compete with us on a global scale buy a meaningful amount of our debt. The Asian's for example. Japan and China have purchased hundreds of billions of dollars of treasury notes. If they decide to crash our economy with our own debt they will go down with us. Who will buy their goods? Who will fill the void?

But I agree with you, there will be alot of pain coming soon. I hope you don't work for Citigroup...
 
Last edited:

Brock

Flashaholic
Joined
Aug 6, 2000
Messages
6,346
Location
Green Bay, WI USA
One thing about a "falling" dollar is we export a lot more because our exported goods become cheaper and our imported good become more expensive. Honestly if we wanted to even out the trade deficit all we have to do is get the dollar to about 50% of where it is now. Then it would be cheaper to buy US made good then import it from where ever and our exports would also skyrocket. I am not saying this is good or bad, just that is what happens as the dollars value goes down comparatively.
 

Lightraven

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 2, 2004
Messages
1,170
Government debt is not really that different from personal debt. If you have a home loan, the mortgage lender cannot just arbitrarily say one day, "You owe us $150,000 and we want it right now." The contract is that you pay a set amount monthly. The U.S. government is paying interest on it's bonds on a daily basis, to bondholders around the world. It is also paying out principals on a daily basis to bonds that have matured.

And when somebody says, "Japan (China, Saudia Arabia) holds a meaningful amount of debt," do they refer to private citizens or the governments of those countries? Because I'd bet a lot of money that the vast majority of the U.S. debt is held by U.S. citizens and corporations. I've got mine.

I don't know how one country crashes another's economy, short of a war. The U.S. economy is the product of a hundred million of the wealthiest, most productive, most highly educated workers in world history! You don't just stop buying some Treasury Bonds and affect that.
 

kelmo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
3,092
Location
Sacramento
I disagree. We are approaching the 10 trillion dollar mark in our national debt. At that point we will literally need an act of Congress to go beyond that amount. The big knock on the American consumer is we don't save enough. If we did I doubt you'd see any senior citizens working at McDonalds or Walmart. There would be no credit crunch. The 100 wealthiest people in our country could not even cover 10% of our national debt.
 

jtr1962

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
7,505
Location
Flushing, NY
What are the practical courses of action to protect oneself from what's coming? Should I cash in the T-bills I inherited from my father and buy gold with them? Should I do the same with anything in my savings account or IRAs? I don't want to have my life savings evaporate overnight on account of other people's stupidity. Unfortunately, there are tax consequences to these courses of action, but I'd rather pay taxes and protect my assets than have nothing.

On another note, I think going through dumpsters to find what's valuable and what isn't is suddenly going to be a useful skill. :(
 

London Lad

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
1,839
Location
Suffolk U.K.
thesurefire,

I don't know the answer to that question, but I can tell you that it won't be all that long before the dollar loses a lot more buying power. Every month billions of USD go out of the country--essentially I.O.U's to foreign entities--and those dollars are held because it is thought that the dollar is a good investment, a safe holding for value. In Mexico, when I was there, people would take USD happily. But once the illusion of the strong US economic situation disappears, people will be scrambling to get something, anything, for all those dollars, and they will all come home to roost, and the fed won't be able to do a damn thing about it. Contracting the money supply by raising prime, or increasing M1 won't help in the least--on the contrary. It's going to happen sometime in the next 10 years, in my opinion, and when it does there is going to be a serious revaluation of goods and services.

It's astonishing how bamboozled the public is about very basic issues such as inflation and the basis of our money supply. People think that inflation is "the natural result of an expanding economy" when the exact opposite is true! Inflation results when the power of the economy decreases for the same money supply, or when the money supply increases faster than the economy grows. We have inflation because the Fed is increasing the money supply more than is warranted. This is essentially stealing value, or if you prefer, it is taxation. However, as the Federal Reserve is not a government agency, nor is there anything held in reserve, it's not really taxation per se. But whatever.

Or people have this idea that when the bank lends you money that they are taking their depositors hard earned cash and lending it out to you, and thus that they need to take care regarding the soundness of the loan.

Not true.

The money that you are given is actually created. The strange and uncanny truth is that the money is the debt; the debt is the money. If all debt, including the National Debt, were paid off, there would be no money left. Not Federal Reserve Notes, anyway. The Fed controls when and how the banks can create money out of nothing via various policies, and this allows the Fed to dramatically increase or decrease the money supply and spending power of consumers.

The Fed and the government both have a vested interest in keeping the price of gold and other precious metals low, and they have reserves and powers on hand specifically do accomplish this. But they've been unable to keep gold down, and it's been on the rise for about the last decade. I think the low point was about 265 USD per ounce and it's now about 675. It should, by rights, be about two or three thousand dollars an ounce, given the current purchasing power of the dollar, so gold is still a good investment. Although, if the economy completely collapses, the best thing would be a self-sufficient estate like a small farm, owned free and clear. (or, obviously, BOTH).

I've felt for years that real estate prices and the attitudes of people towards mortgages and home ownership have been INSANE. I had one guy here at work telling me I should buy a home (this was a couple or so years ago) because "money was cheap". What he meant was that lending rates were low, historically low, and thus you could get a low monthly payment ("cheap") on any given sum ("money"). I have to say that that one sentence flabergasted me. It's not that it was any revelation about economics to me, but it WAS a revelation about peoples attitudes towards money and loans.

Most people are only looking at the low monthly payments. That's just about all they see. As if the PRINCIPLE + INTEREST + TAXES + INSURANCE summed up over the 20 or 30 years of repayment were insignificant. You have people buying a house with zero money down! CRAZY! These people aren't home owners! No more than someone who rents! The bank owns their house, just like the land lord owns the house of a renter.

There have been record foreclosures this past year, all due to people over extending themselves and then being unable to keep up when the prime rate went up. Not to mention all those people who took out second mortgages on their homes, which means they monetized their houses. There was a whole lot of money injected into the economy just from all they people that did that--but it didn't represent any actual increase of production or service value in the economy.

Insane. Insane. Insane.

And then there are all the people graduating from colleges with HUGE debt--like $80,000 or $100,000 even--and without any high powered skill to balance that debt out. $80K for a liberal arts degree? WTF? I love the liberal arts and don't for a second think that everyone should be a doctor or an engineer, but COME ON! You can educate yourself and save the 80 grand, or go to a cheaper college. When I went to school, I paid about $5,000 a year, and this included room and board, and I feel pretty happy about my education, and would definitely not have increased my debt fourfold in exchange for graduating from Harvard or MIT or Cornell instead.

And, even more crazy, there are a lot of people who really would be happier and more suited for a trade or skill, such as training to be a plumber or an electrician or a carpenter, and so on. You can even get trained for free, or even get paid to learn the trade, by apprenticing. Why does everyone have to go to college now? It's dilluting the value of a college education, and is dumbing down the curriculum because the colleges can't count on the same minimum level of education and ability that they used to.

There will be signs, I suspect. If I ever hear that China is no longer pegging their currency to ours, that will be a scary bit of news for example.

But, I'll cut myself off as I still haven't answered the question posed by this thread, nor will I be able to anytime today.

What a brilliant and spot on post. Things are very much the same in the UK but very few seem to realise it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top