So.. Fenix P3D Rebel 100 . . . . .

Are the brightness ratings overhyped like the cree versions? we have all proven that 160 lumens = 130 and 130 = 115 etc what ever. I would just like fenix to tell us what amount of light we actually GET from the lights we buy.

Please tell me they are not using the same old rating method, like Oh 300Lumens... only you actually get like 270 lumens..

Any info on this?
Cheers:candle:

techwg said:

Are the brightness ratings overhyped like the cree versions? we have all proven that 160 lumens = 130 and 130 = 115 etc what ever. I would just like fenix to tell us what amount of light we actually GET from the lights we buy.

Please tell me they are not using the same old rating method, like Oh 300Lumens... only you actually get like 270 lumens..

Any info on this?
Cheers:candle:

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Unless it's stated otherwise, I always assume flashlight manufacturers mean "bulb" lumens. Flashlight manufacturers get the "bulb" lumen numbers from the LED manufacturers. The LED manufacturers test the LEDs under standardized (ideal) conditions.

Ok, lets look at it like this. If i goto a shop, and buy a bottle of coke, and it says 500ml and i measure its contents and theres only 400ml, thats illegal or something. You are told if you use this, you get 160 lumens.. when you check them it tells you 125 - 130 . . . How can they actually get away with telling people way false figures? just because a bottle holds 500ml dont give me the right to tell you your getting 500 and instead give you 400 .. Just my opinion

techwg said:

Ok, lets look at it like this. If i goto a shop, and buy a bottle of coke, and it says 500ml and i measure its contents and theres only 400ml, thats illegal or something. You are told if you use this, you get 160 lumens.. when you check them it tells you 125 - 130 . . . How can they actually get away with telling people way false figures? just because a bottle holds 500ml dont give me the right to tell you your getting 500 and instead give you 400 .. Just my opinion

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The same way that, at least in the U.S., car manufacturers test mileage on a dynamometer and disregard air resistance. The car will never actually perform as well as advertised.

Oh, is it really too much for manufactors to give people good stats? Surefire give you the minimum it will do. if they say 65 lumens you better believe it will be 65 lumens OR more..

The Fenix P3D's LED may well produce 160 lumens, and the Rebel 100 may well produce 200 lumens. That's at the emitter, not what is actually coming out of the front of the lens. That's more to do with the reflector, etc, and how well it focuses that light forward. Also LED's can vary, so you may get one that is brighter than another.

I can tell you that a Fenix rated at 160 does put out more light than a Fenix rated at 135, and the P3D Rebel 100 rated at 200 lumens, puts out more than a P3D with a P4 rated at 160 lumens.

I think what you want to know is how many lumens are actually coming out the front of the len. Fenix isn't telling us that figure, they are just telling us what the LED is supposed to be putting out at the LED itself. Surefire probably gives lumens out the front of the lens, such as 65 lumens, while the bulb might be doing 80 lumens or whatever.

We could take 10 LED's, all putting out 200 lumens, and put them in 10 various flashlights with various reflectors, aspherical lenses, etc, and get 10 different results and 10 different lumen ratings.

It would be nice if they gave a lumen rating of what is actually coming out the front of the lens, or a lux reading at 1 meter. I'm not sure if there is 1 perfect way to measure how much light is coming out, I'll leave that for the experts here to explain.

I would rather get the rating from independent sources. I trust Surefire's measurements mainly because Surefire's published "out the front" lumens have been matched over and over by independent tests.

Surefire has spent lots of money and time measuring their lights. Still, some people remain skeptical about how objective Surefire can be. Awhile ago Surefire changed the lumen ratings of some lights because they had changed their method of measuring LED lights. Surefire was trying to give a more accurate measurement of the lights. Instead of accepting Surefire's changes as legitimate, some people piled on the criticisms. You'd see comments like "Has Surefire marketing department taken over the lumens testing?" I never saw any evidence that Surefire's reported lumens were wrong.

Most companies are not willing to spend as much time and money as Surefire to measure flashlights output. Even if they are, they might not want release the results to the public.

well all they have to say is the minimum/agerage lumens per mode. If these lights only had on or off, and they said 160 lumen, and were only 130 lumen you can safely say "i was talking about the led its self and its maximum output" But the problem i have is they break it down into modes and tell you in X mode you are going to get Y lumens. This is where that basic model breaks down. There is no basis for them to say that high mode is X medium mode is Y when it does not pump those figured out. I dont know why they do this. Its a misrepresentation of the flashlights modes. Dont get me wrong i like the lights and i AM going to get a P3D Rebel 100. But i want to have this company not blatantly LIE to everyone. Everyon is forced to say "its 160 lumens" and they have no idea its not actually that bright.

techwg said:

well all they have to say is the minimum/agerage lumens per mode. If these lights only had on or off, and they said 160 lumen, and were only 130 lumen you can safely say "i was talking about the led its self and its maximum output" But the problem i have is they break it down into modes and tell you in X mode you are going to get Y lumens. This is where that basic model breaks down. There is no basis for them to say that high mode is X medium mode is Y when it does not pump those figured out. I dont know why they do this. Its a misrepresentation of the flashlights modes. Dont get me wrong i like the lights and i AM going to get a P3D Rebel 100. But i want to have this company not blatantly LIE to everyone. Everyon is forced to say "its 160 lumens" and they have no idea its not actually that bright.

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The LED manufacturers make charts that show how many bulb lumens the LEDs will produce over a wide range. If you search you can find them here at CPF.

If the LED manufacturer says the LED produces X Lumens at Y mA and the flashlight is Y mA on level 3, the flashlight manufacturer can say the flashlight has X bulb Lumens at level 3.

hi, i was refering mainly to fenix with their claims of what mode does what brightness though, not the main led company

techwg said:

hi, i was refering mainly to fenix with their claims of what mode does what brightness though, not the main led company

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.... :sigh: What people are trying to explain to you is Fenix quotes lumens from the LED manufacturer. If Fenix sends 350mah to the LED, they look at the manufacturer's chart and quote that lumen rating at that current. If their low mode is 50mah, they look on the chart and find 9 lumens (or whatever) and quote that. Fenix isn't pulling these numbers out of thin air or LYING as you put it, they are quoting specs from the people who make the LEDs.

WadeF said:

.... :sigh: What people are trying to explain to you is Fenix quotes lumens from the LED manufacturer.

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I think that is the point that the OP made.

BTW, just for fun I took my Surefire E2e with fresh primaries and stuck the bezel right up to the sensor on my light meter (the sensore dome when recessed is large enough to capture all the light coming out of the Surefire) and took a EV reading. It's supposed to put out 65 lumens. I then took my Fenix P2D and set it to high, which is supposed to be 80 lumens. Guess what? It had a higher EV reading than the Surefire! So if Fenix was grossly over estimating the lumens I should have had an equal or lesser reading than the Surefire. However, it was putting out more light than the Surefire when set to the 80 lumen level. I can't tell you if it's putting out 70 lumens, 75, 80, or 90, but it's putting out more and when I put it on turbo it's putting out a lot more.

I think most flashlight manufacturers would not want to spend the resources to measure the actual torch lumens as opposed to bulb lumens. That's ok by me because if they do, it would mean a higher end price for us buyers.

I am content with knowing the bulb lumens and adjusting by some generic factor such as 0.65 because in my view, the difference in output lumens between different lights using the same emitter should not vary that drastically because of differences in reflectors or materials. What would vary more significantly (and what I would focus more on) would be the beam shape (flood vs spill, smooth vs ringy) and the brightness/lux and size of the hotspot which would affect the throw of the light and these are best judged by looking at beam shots rather than output lumens.

We all know the chinese manufacturers caters the lumen whore crowd thats why they over inflate the lumen ratings and always round it up. Just take it with a grain of salt they are fine lights, its like when you buy a 300 HP car you never reach 300 HP until you get near the red line so you actually using less than what the manufacturer states besides as the car gets old the power drops same for flashlights :thumbsup: