Fenix P3D Rebel 100 - Quality issues

My first post on CPF... Until now I've just been reading the posts, has always been a very interesting source of information for me.

I have just received my second Fenix flashlight, the 'famous' P3D Rebel 100, and I'm actually *not* so happy with it. Let me share my experience with you.

A few weeks ago I have ordered a P1CE Q2 version (at fenix-store.com) and this is an amazing flashlight with a perfect beam for that size. Wanted to have the non-D version since I like no-frills lights
Excellent finish, very (very!) well machined, nicely centered Cree Q2, the type of beam color I like. And extremely quick delivery by 4sevens. A good start...

Then I accidentially came across the fenix-store when the first Rebel 100 P3D versions were announced, took the chance and ordered one. Arrived today (I'm in Germany).

First impressions:

- finish is not as good as on P1CE, minor marks and scratches on the head

- Rebel LED is not well centered, I would say it's at least 20% off


- when switched on, I can see many ugly brownish spots in the front glass, seems they are burnt into the coating, looks like they are on the inner side. Obviously doesn't affect the beam, but looks really ugly and is not like on my P1CE. Lots of dust on the inside and the reflector.


- tailcap switch is working very strange (have to admit that I'm not used to this): it almost always starts with medium mode, re-setting the modes takes much longer than keeping it two seconds off. With head screwed on tightly it randomly starts with either strobe or turbo mode. Arghhh, I hate that!
When being in SOS mode, it's hard to get out there. Seems it's only switching to the next mode if I click (half-pressed) just in the moment it's on again - if I try to switch in a dark phase it doesn't react and keeps on running in SOS mode.

- in turbo mode it's getting <really> hot, no comparison to the nice brass heatsink on my P1CE which is only getting a little more than hand warm

- on all three modes low-mid-high my P1CE is clearly brighter, just on turbo the P3D R100 wins by about one EV (I have measured with my Polaris light meter at one feet distance). But since the P3D gets so extremely hot here, it's really no mode I want to use for more than a few minutes. So my P1CE wins...

Is all that normal? Did I receive a bad 'Monday' sample?
If this is 'Premium', I don't want to see the 'regular' P3D...

4sevens: I'll put all that into my report to you...

markfinn

I have to say mine is the exact opposite. The finish is nice and smooth like all Fenix lights. The Rebel is well centered as far as I can tell. The tailcap works PERFECT. It actually has a much nicer feel since it has the textured tailcap button.
I haven't see a P1CE in person but there is no way it is brighter than high on the P3D Rebel. It is very bright!
You might have gotten a lemon or something but I think most everyone has been very pleased with their P3D Rebel.

I also had some tail cap issues with my P3D Rebel. I swapped the tailcap from my P3D Cree P4 and it was fine. I got a new switch from fenix-store and replaced the one in the tail cap and that seemed to do the trick. However, it occasionally was still acting up. I had to adjust the parts inside the tailcap to get it working properly, but it's still a bit iffy. I think there is something wrong with sometime else in the tail cap, the metal parts. You may want to see if Fenix-store can send you a whole new tailcap from a known working unit and maybe send them the bad tailcap to investigate. I may just order another spare tailcap if they have them available.

That's the chances we take buying special editions. They rush to get the latest LED's to us, and I'm sure QC sometimes takes a back seat. Hopefully the next batch will have better QC and these issues are isolated. I also have a smudge on the inside of my lens, but it doesn't seem to effect anything.

I don't think the problems are severe enough with my unit to go through the trouble to try and get it swapped out, but if you feel there are too many issues with your light just contact fenix-store to see if they will swap it for you.

If anyone knows why the Fenix tailcap P3D would have trouble changing modes and how I could fix it, I'm all ears. I tried cleaning all the parts. Could something be making contact to the tailcap case that shouldn't be? Inside the tailcap you have the rubber switch cover, then a flat washer, then the switch, then a retaining ring with a rubber o-ring that holds everything in the tailcap.

Hmmm...thanks for that feedback.

Actually I thought that a manufacturer would pay extra attention to the first samples of a new series to give a good impression

If I received a bad sample I will talk to fenix-store. And yes, my P1CE_Q2 is definitely brighter than the P3D R100 on high mode! My P1CE_Q2 seems to be outstanding bright...

markfinn

markfinn said:

Actually I thought that a manufacturer would pay extra attention to the first samples of a new series to give a good impression

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Welcome to CPF,

It could be worse - look at the new Surefire L1 Cree problems Fenix-store has excellent customer service, I am sure they will take care of this problem.

WadeF,

Are the batteries sitting past the end of the tube? The light gets it's neg contact from the ring in the cap touching the end of the tube, not the threads.

The Rebel's poor thermal paths may be responsible for this scalding max temperature. Since the Cree has superior thermal management right down to a sliding dome to account for heat expansion and 8x more surface area, it can keep its max temp down. The heat can flow better, so it doesn't build up excessively. Just a thought..

My very first P3D p4 acted the way yours is re: modes. I confirmed with fenix directly, and later with david, that it was a problem fenix had seen occasionally. I returned it for another and all was well.

Re: brightness - In low modes, my rebel 100 AND my Q5 P3D's both appear dimmer than my P1D Q2 and P2D Q2. On Turbo the Q5 and rebel top the others marginally. Since the Q5 is my own mod of an original P4 version, I'm guessing that the driver has not changed. Rather, the Q5 and rebel respnd with lower output in low modes. I actually appreciate the lower"lows" and higher "highs" for certain uses. And for general usage, I prefer the Q2's brighter "low".

Drop a note to fenix re the various issues, then contact david and relay what you've found.

L.E.D. said:

The Rebel's poor thermal paths may be responsible for this scalding max temperature. Since the Cree has superior thermal management right down to a sliding dome to account for heat expansion and 8x more surface area, it can keep its max temp down. The heat can flow better, so it doesn't build up excessively. Just a thought..

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The Rebel doesn't have any intrinsic heat transfer problems. I've run my Rebel aspheric mag for over 10 minutes at 900mA with no ill effects.

L.E.D. said:

The Rebel's poor thermal paths may be responsible for this scalding max temperature. Since the Cree has superior thermal management right down to a sliding dome to account for heat expansion and 8x more surface area, it can keep its max temp down. The heat can flow better, so it doesn't build up excessively. Just a thought..

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Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Poor thermal contact from the die to the heat sink doesn't raise the heat sink temperature. Assuming that the two LEDs have roughly the same efficiency (or the efficiency of the one in the hotter light is better) and the flashlights have about the same mass and surface area, one light being hotter means:

1. The heat is more concentrated in the hotter light. For example, there's poorer thermal contact from the head to the rest of the light.
2. The efficiency of the regulator is poorer in the hotter light, causing its regulator to contribute more heat.
3. The hotter light is poorer at transferring the heat to the air for some reason. A flat black colored light will radiate heat better than a shiny one, and some shapes are better at convective cooling than others.

All the heat generated by the LED, regulator, and battery has to make its way to the outside of the light sooner or later, regardless of how good or poor the thermal path is.

c_c

I must say that fenix has an aweful reputation for quality control. But with all the complaints i hear from people having to send their light back, the uk shop called "The photon shop" checks all models for physical defects and actual working order before he sends them. I have had 3 lights from him thus far and each one has been impeccable. I was going to buy from the usa store before i found this one in the UK but i was afraid about the defect factor, i always prefer to buy something from my own area just incase though. Hope that helps any uk people who want these rebels. Its the most depressing thing to recieve a deformed/malfunctioned model..

L.E.D. said:

The Rebel's poor thermal paths may be responsible for this scalding max temperature. Since the Cree has superior thermal management right down to a sliding dome to account for heat expansion and 8x more surface area, it can keep its max temp down. The heat can flow better, so it doesn't build up excessively. Just a thought..

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A well sinked emitter will make the body of the flashlight heat up faster, not the other way around. If the emitter isn't transferring its heat into the flashlight, where will it go? Nowhere is where and the body of the flashlight will remain cool while the emitter cooks.

techwg said:

I must say that fenix has an aweful reputation for quality control. But with all the complaints i hear from people having to send their light back, the uk shop called "The photon shop" checks all models for physical defects and actual working order before he sends them. I have had 3 lights from him thus far and each one has been impeccable. I was going to buy from the usa store before i found this one in the UK but i was afraid about the defect factor, i always prefer to buy something from my own area just incase though. Hope that helps any uk people who want these rebels. Its the most depressing thing to recieve a deformed/malfunctioned model..

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Price is also an issue.
It's cheaper to get it from the US than the UK.
I have used Rob at the Photon Shop and I cannot fault his customer service, and how helpful he is.
But I can also say the same about David at the Fenix Store.
But price wins every time I'm afraid.

Edit: All my Fenix lights have been perfect.

Robban said:

A well sinked emitter will make the body of the flashlight heat up faster, not the other way around. If the emitter isn't transferring its heat into the flashlight, where will it go? Nowhere is where and the body of the flashlight will remain cool while the emitter cooks.

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Well, yes, it will always go somewhere. Heat flows "downhill", from a place of higher temperature to one of lower temperature. (Let me know when you've figured out how to make it go the other way, or even stay put, without using energy to pump it!) If you have poor thermal contact from the emitter to the light, all the heat will eventually get out, it'll just take longer. During the initial warm up period, the LED will get hotter, resulting in a larger thermal gradient (temperature difference) between the LED and outside. But once equilibrium is reached, every watt (or calorie if you prefer) of heat generated by the LED migrates to the outside, and at the same rate regardless of how good or poor the thermal path is. If it didn't, the LED temperature would have to continue to rise without limit.

c_c

fluke said:

Price is also an issue.
It's cheaper to get it from the US than the UK.
I have used Rob at the Photon Shop and I cannot fault his customer service, and how helpful he is.
But I can also say the same about David at the Fenix Store.
But price wins every time I'm afraid.

Edit: All my Fenix lights have been perfect.

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Oh i understand that, but i cant justify the lower cost for the risk of a faulty one. maybe the risk is small but i happen to really like photonshop's service and support, i have no doubts that 7777 has equally good service. but for me its distance.

Also i am so impatient. if i order now, i want it 10 mins ago lol

Took your image into Photoshop and turned on the grid feature and drew boxes to show where the exact center should be. Your Rebel is pretty close to dead center.

Those brown spots and dust on the glass look quite serious :green:, I have never seen this before. But the LED doesn't seem to be off-center, you should have seen my L1D CE LED, but I don't notice it in the beam...

I was gonna say, Wade, that die is pretty much dead on, which is what matters.

the spots on the glass look like oil to me.. tiny bit of washing up liquid and wipe it clean .. thats what i would do.

techwg said:

the spots on the glass look like oil to me.. tiny bit of washing up liquid and wipe it clean .. thats what i would do.

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He says it's probably on the inner side, it's not that easy to take it apart and it would void the warranty...