Kel Tec SU-16, performance? opinions?

n00b at guns, so don't shoot in this direction if I said something stupid
not sure if its appropriate even in off-topic area...if i did just lock it

I was looking up survival rifles under the criteria of durability, ease of use, and does not need special tools to disassemble the entire gun to lube the parts

I've seen numerous gun maintainence kits, etc etc and personally I'm a wee bit scared of the whole mess. knowing I cant even put a clock back together without breaking something I wanted something simple. After hearing of entry-level people starting off with .22s and thought it would be a good idea to look in that direction.

I looked and found the SU-16
love the design [spare mag storage, slim profile etc.]
right smack in my budget limit
.223 rem [no idea what it means...but a googled pic looks fine]
shorter barrel

read the review and description from wiki

intended purpose: varmint hunting [not really mice...but small wildlife that has a strong interest and devotion to my fruit trees. experience with guns, didn't think of it as necessary for my career, really just curiosity

I have a tendency to take things apart....everything from radios to microwaves to hot water heaters....haven't tested my luck on the car yet, I can bear with cold showers but not a broken down car because I can't put it back together.

wiki said:

The weapon is simple, comprising only two major assemblies, the bolt-carrier group and the receiver, and a total of only 14 separate components when completely field-stripped.

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any opinions or experience on the SU-16 or Kel-Tec products in general?

Anything KelTec does is pretty good dollar value and user friendly. Their customer service is great.

www.ktog.com and www.ktrange.com will tell you more than you ever want to know about KelTecs.

I have the SU-16A, and it's a great rifle. It's relatively simple for the most part, you dont' need any tools to take it apart. About the only trouble I have sometimes is getting the bolt carrier back in place, I feel like it's one of those puzzles with the nails where everything has to be in a certain orientation to fit. Just don't force anything and it'll all fit into place.

Some people have issues with Wolf ammo, so if you're planning on shooting Wolf do some research. Mine shoots fine with it. Lot of people criticize it based on the a review without ever shooting it, but it seems like everyone that actually owns one is pretty happy with it. The quality is not going to compare to an AR, but it's half the price, so it's not really a fair comparison to start with. I've heard really good things about their service, but never needed to contact them.

I think you'll like it for your use. But you might also want to look into a .22 rifle. Maybe something like a 10/22 or an AR-7, which is kinda similar in theory to a kel tec, it comes apart, everything stores in the stock, and it's fun to play around with. The only reason I suggest this is because .22 is much, much cheaper to shoot than .223 (about 1/10 the cost) and the rifles are a lot cheaper. So you can have a lot more fun for less money. I think a .223 is probably overkill for varmit hunting. If you decide you like it, then you can always buy the kel tec at a later date, they'll probably have newer models that you might like better.

For a survival rifle, you may want to look at the AR-7, as suggested, and the M6 Scout. The M6 is nice because you can have the .410 barrel loaded with a slug for some knockdown.

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/springfield/M69201.asp
http://www.1stconnect.com/anozira/SiteTops/weapons/milsurvrifle.htm

I read up on wolf ammo...something about aluminum casing incompatibility and extraction failures

I don't have a clear idea about how exactly the extractor works [first time discussing guns] but I have a pretty good idea what I don't want to use

I read something about breaking in barrels, what exactly is this purpose?

.22 sounds good...I'll look into it
1/10th the cost? gee...no one told me they're that expensive [or .22s being that cheap]

I weigh 166, about 50% being fat, only 20 years on the belt and have some trouble just balancing on one leg, how is the recoil of the SU-16? anything I should worry about?
typical .22?

Although and interesting design I just don't see why one would buy one over an AR15 variant.

Now I am not particularly a Kel-Tec fan, as far as their pistols go. Their long arms seem to be better products but don't feel all that durable to me.

Unless you are in a state like Calif., Mass etc. I just don't see the Kel-Tec as being the best choice for anything.

Just my two cents. This is not meant to be a bash on those who do like the rifle, because we all know what opinions are like and this is only my personal opinion.

A good rule of thumb with Wolf ammo is commie guns, commie ammo, Western guns, Western ammo. It's not that Wolf is horrible, just that QC is not as good and it really tends to be designed around firearms with looser tolerances.

As for .22 Long Rifle.......

Step 1: Buy an AR15 by a reputable maker (Armalite, Colt, DPMS, Bushmaster, Rock River are the standards, although there are excellent much more expensive builders as well).

Step 2: Buy a .22 conversion kit or even a full .22 conversion upper receiver.

Step 3: Enjoy having two firearms in one platform.

At any rate back to the Kel-Tec, by most accounts it is a decent little rifle. The ones I have handled have worked as they should, they just do nothing for me.

cslinger said:

Although and interesting design I just don't see why one would buy one over an AR15 variant..

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As with most things, it's all about cost. Sure the AR is better quality, but that quality isn't free. I haven't priced it lately, but if i remember the cost of AR-15 run about $1K+. I'm sure you can piece one together yourself for a little cheaper, but a lot of people don't want to go through that hassle. The kel-tecs are a turnkey solution going for about $500, and pretty much does the same thing. If you and aren't planning to go to war with the rifle and just want something functional, the kel tec works fine. Also, for the price of a .22 conversion, you could just buy a cheap .22 and have two separate rifles to play with

Illum,

Don't be scared off by the wolf, you can try it out and if it doesn't work, then don't use it. The extractor is just a little hook type mechanism that hooks onto the lip of the casing and pulls it out. Some people have problems, some don't. It's cheap ammo, you can't expect 100% reliability at 50% of the cost.

.223 ammo is expensive right now, because of limited supplies. Even wolf ammo is roughly $189/1000 rds or about $0.19/rd, and that's in bulk. Buying non-wolf ammo can be as much as $.040/rd. Compare that to .22lr which you can get for less than $.02/rd at any walmart or sporting goods store. Now imagine yourself at the range, and each time you pull the trigger you're shooting a quarter and a few coins out the end of the barrel, that's why I recommend getting a .22. At the end of the day, I still end up shooting the .22lr because you still get about 95% of the fun, but at 10% of the cost.

I wouldn't worry about the recoil from a .223, there's some but not a whole lot. The kel tec doesn't have much padding on the end of the stock, so you might feel a little more uncomfortable.

Hey Illum; you might want to check out this thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/170443. In it, we discuss the question "What's the ProPoly of rifles?"

About recoil: just practice. Anything around .22 or less is nothing to worry about.

Oh, and I highly recommend going with .22LR. It's a good feeling to be able to find ammo for two or three cents per round when others can literally cost 10-50 times as much. It should be more than adequate for small varmints.

well...I have no idea where to find an AR-15...i doubt wally will have it
I live just short 7 miles to Kel-tec's store/CNC shop so....

thanks again TigerhawkT3

ITN, have you considered a bolt action rifle? Depending on mfg...dependable, rugged, and possibly inexpensive compared to an AR/clone.
Routine maintenance is extremely simple, and accuracy can be very good.
.22lr is a great rifle caliber(and handgun etc), relatively inexpensive, light in weight, and readily available.
The .22lr in a rifle should give you acceptable accuracy out to 75-100 yards.
The .223 Rem(5.56mm) in a good bolt gun will give good accuracy out to 250-300 yards.
If hunting with the .223 I'd recommend factory(non-surplus) ammo for reliability and accuracy.
Out in the hot desert areas Wolf .223 is rarely seen in the experienced shooters rifles. We've found that the high heat makes for many "jams" with the Wolf ammo and the lacquered cases seem to "gum up" chambers . Should be OK with a bolt gun
Hope you find a good rifle.
People tend to remember their 1st one with fond memories.
Cheers.

come to think of it, a bolt action should be the first on my list:thinking:

When I first started looking at the Kel and gathering information....I thought of specialties in design, component simplicity, storage size [which threw me into the realm of collapsible stock rifles]...When dad was in service, he liked carbines over all the other guns he used...from the early M4A1 to the M16...so I thought I broaden my list to carbines, essentially shorter barrel versions of rifles but uses the same ammo...:thinking:

Having never shot any real munitions [pellet guns were probably the peak of my experiences] I think it might not be in my best interest to skip the "prerequisite" and start off with gas operated semi's anyway

People around me aren't too thrilled about guns...especially since I still live at my parent's house [I'm 20 but have yet to take flight], so I like to keep it as low profile as possible

The action of the SU16 appears to be AK47 based, so it should be very reliable and clean running compared to an AR15.

cslinger said:

Although and interesting design I just don't see why one would buy one over an AR15 variant.

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Because the AR15 is a poorly designed POS.

chevrofreak said:

Because the AR15 is a poorly designed POS.

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sounds like you've been sorely disappointed by it:shrug:

chevrofreak said:

The action of the SU16 appears to be AK47 based, so it should be very reliable and clean running compared to an AR15.

Click to expand...

Taken from their website:
"The SU-16 has a conventional gas piston operation and utilizes the proven M-16 breech locking system. "

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16a.html

Good for the money, but I would much rather own a AK-101. Folding stock, .223, unbreakable design.

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka122.html

Marduke said:

Taken from their website:
"The SU-16 has a conventional gas piston operation and utilizes the proven M-16 breech locking system. "

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16a.html

Good for the money, but I would much rather own a AK-101. Folding stock, .223, unbreakable design.

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka122.html

Click to expand...

The bolt carrier and gas piston are what appear to be AK based, while the bolt itself is AR15 inspired.

Illum_the_nation said:

sounds like you've been sorely disappointed by it:shrug:

Click to expand...

The AR15 has good ergonomics. The problem is that it uses a direct gas impingement gas system to cycle the action. There is a port in the barrel that pushes gas through a tube back to the bolt carrier. That gas pushes directly on the bolt carrier to move it rearward. This causes a lot of heat transfer to the action and it also deposits carbon from the burning gun powder on the mechanical parts.

A good design (one using a gas piston) has a cylinder in which a piston rides. The gas pushes on the piston, which pushes the bolt carrier rearward. This does not allow much of the gas to enter the action, which means it doesnt get as hot and it wont deposit near as much carbon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_impingement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-Operated

The direct gas system was supposed to rely on IMR powder as its designer Eugene Stoner had envisioned. McNamara's so called "Wiz kids" decided it was cheaper to use regular ball powder and get rid of the chrome plated bore :shakehead.
Remember that these are the same people who said the F-4 Phantom had no need of a cannon. Who needs a cannon, Missles are here now! For wiz kids, they were pretty darn stupid.

The original Stoner design of his AR-18 used a piston gas system. It worked out quite well. Probably the best 5.56mm I've used is the South Korean Daewoo K2. It uses the AR-18 gas system while keeping the ergonomics of the AR-15. It even has a adjustable gas regulator like the old FN FNC. I bought several while they were dirt cheap (229.99) in the late 80s.

Here's an ETS review:

http://www.equipped.org/Kel-Tec_SU-16_Review.htm

thanks for the advices guys

does anyone know is there a distributor in Florida?
I asked around and didn't see much