Night adapted eyes rant

I felt the need to bring this topic up since I haven't seen it posted (if there is a thread, I apologize, and please point me to it). So here is the main point...

Most of the regular posters here have hundreds, and in many cases thousands of dollars wrapped up into their flashlight collection. With so much "light" at your fingertips, why is there ANY need to have "night adapted eyes?" If you have your flashlight on the entire time you are outside at night then your eyes will never adapt... which is the WHOLE POINT of this forum... using flashlights at night.

Do the fans of night adapted vision drive their car with no lights at night? Of course they don't!

On the other hand, do I walk at night with no lights at all? Sure I do. But I also play with my lights every few minutes. So I guess I don't meet the 20-30 minute time frame for night adaption. Why should I? Why should I walk in total darkness when I have 5 flashlights on me?

And what gives someone else the right to tell me NOT to use my lights outdoors because it might hamper their night vision? HELLO!!!!! This is CPF, not TotalDarkness.com.

I'm just amazed and apalled at the NON-Flashaholics here that regularly post.

The best way to have night-adapted eyes is to own no flashlights at all and never start a campfire, and never turn on the lights in your house, and never turn on the lights on your car.

Why in the world do I need night adapted eyes when I have five flashlights on me? I see 100 times the amount of "nature" when using my lights as those of you with "night adapted vision" do.

Again, sometimes it is cool and fun to walk in total darkness. But if you preach that that should be the norm, WHY DO YOU OWN FLASHLIGHTS?

Sorry, had to vent. :wave:

Funny you should mention that. I live in rural Maricopa County on an acre+ with my two horses. I just LOVE to hang around outside in the dark. The number of nights I can see the Milky Way are getting less and less all the time as the city builds northward. I can see plenty well to scoop poop and do other chores with only ambient light..... Until my neighbors trun on their floodlight and it's glare intrudes (the legal term is Light Trespass). At the point the beauty of the night is spoiled and I pull out a light (usually my MillerMods Arc AAA or some other low power light.. a different discussion). Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to my neighbors having a light in THEIR yard, but they need to keep their light to themselves. The glare could easily be controlled with a little thought and a properly made shield. Of course, they're not interested in doing anything about it.
To reiterate, I want it to be MY choice for me to be in the dark, NOT someone else's
When you use a light and spoil your night vision, you can ONLY see where the light is pointing. When you are dark adapted you can see EVERYWHERE.

Edit:Upon re-reading my post, it seems only the last sentence address your rant. Oh well....

UncleFester said:

Edit:Upon re-reading my post, it seems only the last sentence address your rant. Oh well....

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Those last two sentences were the crux of the topic, and superbly stated.

Flashlights are tools, just as a screwdriver, hammer or such. Just because you have a hammer is no reason to go around whacking everything you see.

I ranted about this months ago :thumbsup:

KingGlamis, (and fastcar), I enjoyed the rant!

Personally I find that very low lumen outputs are just not enough to do my favorite activity in the evening, which is reading. I'd need something close to 10 lumens at least. For moving about, I quickly need something at least 15-20 lumens. For confidently moving about in an unknown environment, even more. To illuminate a decent amount of space at a reasonably far out distance, yet more. You get the picture, I hope!

I got a response to one of my posts in one of many novatac threads that 0.08 lumens was fine for activities and even great because of the looong runtime. I mean, Really!!

Being outdoors far away from cities and observing the heavens is a wonderful activity, but has little to do with using flashlights under more "normal" circumstances. After all, you are observing LIGHT up above, not stuff that needs to be illuminated on the ground. Once you needed the flashlight to actually get somewhere through obstacles, you'd need a higher output fairly quickly I bet!

Also, how often are your eyes really dark-adapted? Probably only after you've been asleep for a while. And even then, if you are waking up, you stop being dark adapted fast.

People can question the need for the rant, but I think I understand it fully. There are lots of people who like certain kinds of flashlights that constantly push the "dark adapted eyes" story to support their point of view. At some level, it is of course sensible, but given that it is done all the time it becomes annoying and misleading.

Pushing any one single attribute of a flashlight (or any product) can be similarly abused. What about "toughness?" I mean, we don't all go around throwing our flashlights against concrete on a daily basis, or running over them with trucks. These things happen, if at all, very rarely. It's like driving a 1 ton truck on a daily basis when just going to the shopping mall and getting a few bags of groceries. You should buy the 1 ton truck if you are regularly hauling around thousands of pounds of stuff.

I just like tough.

I read some people complain about the discomfort they experience due to bright lights at night. I personlly find having lower level useful when I am camping. It's nice to walk in the woods duting a full moon or look at the stars but still have a little bit of light so I don't trip on something.:shrug:

Oddjob said:

I read some people complain about the discomfort they experience due to bright lights at night. I personlly find having lower level useful when I am camping. It's nice to walk in the woods duting a full moon or look at the stars but still have a little bit of light so I don't trip on something.:shrug:

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Best of both worlds right here. That's why you always hear about the "i want a lower low" rants

swxb12 said:

Best of both worlds right here. That's why you always hear about the "i want a lower low" rants

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I sure don't want a lower low. I want a higher high! Isn't that what most of this board is about? People are constantly asking what is the brightest light in a certain category and the custom modded lights are a big deal around here because they are BRIGHT, not because they are dim.

No, this board is not just about bright is better, the more lumens the better! This board (CPF) is about appreciating lights, all kinds of lights, low output lights, spotlights, laser lights, headligts, etc. How they work, how to mod them, new stuff, old stuff. Duty lights, collector lights. Expensive lights. And more...

Bill

Bullzeyebill said:

No, this board is not just about bright is better, the more lumens the better! This board (CPF) is about appreciating lights, all kinds of lights, low output lights, spotlights, laser lights, headligts, etc. How they work, how to mod them, new stuff, old stuff. Duty lights, collector lights. Expensive lights. And more...

Bill

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I agree, this board is not "JUST" about bright lights, but that is a major focus. I can appreciate a light with a long runtime that might not be so bright and I see the purpose. But what I don't get is the people that get offended by flashlights when they are out in nature because the flashlights ruin their night adapted vision.

I will repeat my two main points again.

1) If you are truely out in "nature" there should be no other people around to worry about. Unless you camp in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

2) If you don't like flashlights you shouldn't be on this board. Duh.

KingGlamis said:

I agree, this board is not "JUST" about bright lights, but that is a major focus. I can appreciate a light with a long runtime that might not be so bright and I see the purpose. But what I don't get is the people that get offended by flashlights when they are out in nature because the flashlights ruin their night adapted vision.

I will repeat my two main points again.

1) If you are truely out in "nature" there should be no other people around to worry about. Unless you camp in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

2) If you don't like flashlights you shouldn't be on this board. Duh.

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Night hikes usually occur with groups ranging from several people to a dozen for both safety reasons (never a good idea to be in "nature" completely alone) and for sharing the experience. There are general rules of etiquette for such groups regarding the use of lights, but there always seems to be that one guy who decides to blind everyone with their pocket light saber. If you keep the lights off in a nature walk, and the groups are small, it becomes an experience in sensory awareness and perception; not just vision, but small, hearing, touch... they are all heightened.

But in general, I agree with UncleFester that "When you use a light and spoil your night vision, you can ONLY see where the light is pointing. When you are dark adapted you can see EVERYWHERE."

Marduke said:

Night hikes usually occur with groups ranging from several people to a dozen for both safety reasons (never a good idea to be in "nature" completely alone) and for sharing the experience. There are general rules of etiquette for such groups regarding the use of lights, but there always seems to be that one guy who decides to blind everyone with their pocket light saber. If you keep the lights off in a nature walk, and the groups are small, it becomes an experience in sensory awareness and perception; not just vision, but small, hearing, touch... they are all heightened.

But in general, I agree with UncleFester that "When you use a light and spoil your night vision, you can ONLY see where the light is pointing. When you are dark adapted you can see EVERYWHERE."

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When there is no moon out, when it is totally pitch black, you can't see ANYTHING! I don't care how long you try to let your eyes adapt. I know. I have sat in pitch black darkness for over an hour and still could not see my hand one inch from my eyes, and I have perfect vision.

But that is not the main point. Why even worry about night adapted vision when you have several cool flashlights??????????????????? If you have a flashlight turned on the entire time you are outside at night then you will never need night adapted vision.

KingGlamis said:

But that is not the main point. Why even worry about night adapted vision when you have several cool flashlights??????????????????? If you have a flashlight turned on the entire time you are outside at night then you will never need night adapted vision.

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Sometimes you wanna see but not be seen, then is better to have night adapted vision and use a very dim light only when truly required. If you use a very bright light everybody knows where you are.

KingGlamis,

Everyone needs to have a good rant now and then! So, here here! for that.

I hope you've gotten that off your chest.

Because, unless I am very much out of touch with CPF (or the areas you frequent, anyway) I would have to say that there are NOT a lot of people going around telling you not to use your flashlights.

On the other hand, I have seen a growing awareness that brighter is not always better; that sometimes more is less; that using more light than you NEED can be counter productive. I don't think anyone who is saying these things is against flashlights or is necessarily confessing that they don't like flashlights! That's a radical interpretation of what's going on, I think. But even if they were, they still have a right to be on this board. You don't have to LIKE lights to be here. You just have to want to talk about them in a civil, non-offensive way.

But, however that may be, the point is that at night, when you put a lot of intense light in your nearfield vision, your pupil will contract. The whole night adaption thing isn't a myth. It's real.

I regularly walk at night. I always carry a flashlight (or two). But I do NOT run my light constant on. Most of the time I have my light off, or if I'm using my A2, I might have the low mode (LED's) turned on about half the time to see the terrain at my feet better. Then, when I need to see more, or far away, I will flash the high beam. Having eyes that are more or less dark adapted, together with a short flash of a far throwing incan beam, is a winning combination in my experience.

I've done it the other way, too. I've taken walks with 900+ lumen lights turned on the whole time. I know the joys of turning night into day with an 1185 or 1111 based light. Or of turning night into BRIGHT day with a 100 watt Osram based light.

And I still chose to go the other way. As UncleFester says, when you have a bright flashlight on, you can really only see what's in the beam.

And yes, if there is no moon, no stars, it's pretty darn dark, and a light of some kind is pretty much a must have, but most of the time there is enough light to see if you have dark adapted eyes. And either way, there is a huge difference between turning on your Arc AAA or SF L1 or A2 on low, and turning on 200 or 300 or more lumens of light.

I'm not trying to tell you not to own, or not to use flashlights. Knock yourself out! Run your 2,000 lumen HID continuously. I have no issues with it.

But on the other hand, I don't think anyone should tell me that my approach is nonsense, or that less is never more, or that I don't like flashlights or that I shouldn't be on CPF.

Fair?

I love being in the bush in darkness. When the moon is out and you've been walking along, you start to see everything quite clearly. The scouts would start hiking with all their torches on and i'd tell them to turn them off. They would say "But how are we going to see?" And eventually they'd find out how good night adapted eyes can be. I think it takes 5 minutes for vision to improve in darkness, and after half an hour or so to be fully adapted. A quick flash of a torch resets that clock lickety split

I'm not sure I'm completely clear on your original rant. Are you talking about being out by yourself, or with other people? If you're by yourself, then I agree, I don't care as much about having night adapted eyes. You have the right to light whatever you want with the hundreds of flashlights you have brought. That's the whole point of bringing them, to play with it, I'm guilty of doing it also.

However, if there are other people around, then the answer is simple. It's just common courtesy. We all drive around with our headlights on at night, but not our highbeams. As other people have mentioned, YOU are the only one that can see with your light, most of the times, you're blinding other people also. Not everyone wants a giant spotlight swiveling around shining in their faces, they might enjoy the dark as much as we enjoy the light. You could also look at it from their point of view. If you don't like the dark, and feel the need to bring all these lights with you to light up the area, why are you even in a dark area to begin with? You could easily stay at home in your own living room with the lights on. It's a form of pollution, light pollution. It's similar to people who play their radios out in the wilderness, they might enjoy the sound, but other people feel differently. We might enjoy our flashlights, but not everyone feels the same.

I do think you're lucky to live in an area where you have total darkness. Living in the city, it NEVER gets ptich black, not even close. There's always enough light from the nearby city where I have always been able to hike without lights if i wanted to, even with no moon. The only time I've experienece pitch black was going underground. If I lived in an area like that, I'd want to turn off the lights once in a while just to experience the darkness

I have to say that when I have been out in total darkness outside of the city I like a nice bright floody light in one hand and a thrower in the other.:duh2:

There is a disease referred to as nyctalopia, or night-blindness. It is very real. A rant based on not having normal night adapted eyes is a little easier to understand, since all they're likely wanting to see anyway would be what's in their immediate area of concern. Their up-close field of vision would be what's important.

Otherwise, unless you're trying to be seen, as in your auto or on a bike; or unless you've a need to concentrate on an immediate area of vision like in an auto or on a bike, then preserving your overall ability to see everything rather than up-close details seems advisable.

One more thought about using less light:

Longer runtime, or smaller light, or both. If you can get by with less light you will have more runtime for the same size package. I run an MN15 in my SF M6, and it runs 2.5 hours and puts out 200 lumens in this configuration. I find it to be more useful than running the 630 lumen, 20 minute, MN21 LA. But I'm not saying no one should use the brighter lamp assemblies, or anything. Just pointing out another aspect of "sometimes less is more".