Specs question

Phaetos

Enlightened
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
379
I am perusing DealExtreme to make a few purchases based off recommendations here in the LED section. I like the idea of sub-$20 lights that perform very well. But when looking at the specs of them, alot of them don't give a lumens rating it gives "- Light meter test: 1000 lux @ 1M" that instead. What is it and how does it relate to Lumen output?

Also, these 18650 batteries they list for them. Are they primary cells or some form of rechargeable?

Oh boy ... I'm confusing myself ... Cree, Cree P4, Cree Q2, Cree XR-E ... :eek What's the difference and I'm sure to have the same questions regarding Seoul and Rebel when I get to those.
 
Last edited:

Gunner12

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
10,063
Location
Bay Area, CA
The Lux figure is throw, which is how far the light would project. It means lumens per square meter, but this can be measured at a pinpoint or with a surface the size of a football field.

18650 batteries are rechargeable Lithium Ion batteries. The first two numbers mean width, 18mm, the second two mean length, 65 mm long and the last stands for shape, round tube shaped.

Most Crees you see here will be XR-E Crees, P4, Q2, Q3, Q4 and Q5 are the bin codes, with the Q5 being the most efficient. Seoul P4 U bin is the Seoul most commonly referred to here. The number behind the Rebel, example: Rebel 100, means average lumens at 350 mA.
 

Curious_character

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
1,211
I am perusing DealExtreme to make a few purchases based off recommendations here in the LED section. I like the idea of sub-$20 lights that perform very well. But when looking at the specs of them, alot of them don't give a lumens rating it gives "- Light meter test: 1000 lux @ 1M" that instead. What is it and how does it relate to Lumen output?
First, a lumen "specification" means nothing, since it's subject to the imagination and creativity of the marketing department. And they get creative indeed. It's possible, however, that the lux value was actually measured, so there's a better chance that it means something.

There's no fixed relationship between lumens and lux. Lumens represents the total light output from a light, all together, in all directions. Lux is the brightness in one particular direction and distance from the source. So a 100 watt light bulb, for instance, might put out a lot of lumens, but it'll have a relatively small lux value in any direction since those lumens are spread around all directions. But if you put a reflector on it making a 100 watt spot light, the lux value (in the direction of the main beam) will be much greater even though the total number of lumens will be essentially the same, because you've concentrated the lumens into a beam. The lux values in directions outside the main beam will be less than for a plain bulb, of course. But a single quoted lux value almost always means lux in the direction that the light is brightest.

The square root of the lux at one meter tells you the "throw", or the distance at which the light will illuminate an object with a brightness of 1 lux(*). For example, if a light's main beam produces 100 lux at one meter, it'll light up an object 10 meters away with a brightness (technically, illuminance) of one lux. You need to increase the lux at one meter by a factor of four to double the "throw".

(*)Once again, marketeers are creative and sometimes define "throw" at a lower illumination level. For example, a light having a main beam intensity of 100 lux at one meter might be advertised to have a "throw", "effective distance", or some such of 20 meters rather than 10. If you look at the fine print -- if there even is any -- you'll see they're defining "throw" as the distance at which you get an illumination of 1/4 lux.

c_c
 

Phaetos

Enlightened
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
379
So that figure is subjective then and shouldn't be taken very seriously? Thanks for the reply.
 

nerdgineer

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
May 7, 2004
Messages
2,778
Location
Southern California
So that figure is subjective then and shouldn't be taken very seriously? ...
The lux number at 1 meter is a standard and meaningful measurement of brightness at the beam center and can be used to compare that sample of light against other samples of other lights.

A few reviewers can take measurements to estimate relative total output; but aside from their reviews, lumen numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt.
 

Phaetos

Enlightened
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
379
So .. I'm still confused. Ahh well, I guess there are something's I'm not meant to understand.
 

Curious_character

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
1,211
So that figure is subjective then and shouldn't be taken very seriously? Thanks for the reply.
The lumen output of a light isn't subjective. It's a rigorously defined, measurable value. However, it's difficult to accurately measure the lumen output of a light, so very few users are able to check up on the claims. This makes lumen claims a fertile field for exaggeration and downright fabrication, a fact not escaping the notice of companies needing some way to make their product seem better than the competition. In contrast, lux is pretty easy to measure with moderate accuracy using an inexpensive (~$30 - $40) light meter. So a lot of people are able to check on claims, and dealers and manufacturers aren't so prone to make wild claims. Once you know this, you won't be surprised to find just about every dealer and manufacturer making claims about lumen output, and very few saying anything about lux.

c_c
 

Phaetos

Enlightened
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
379
Ok .. so Lux is a better layman-measureable measurement of output. Got it. So .. how do I read those specs that are listed? Higher value the better?
 

Curious_character

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
1,211
Ok .. so Lux is a better layman-measureable measurement of output. Got it. So .. how do I read those specs that are listed? Higher value the better?
Well, in post #3 above I tried to explain what lux means. Whether more is better depends on the application.

A lot of currently available lights are running the highest efficiency LED available, or one nearly as efficient. And the brighter lights are running them at near (or a bit above or below) their maximum rated current level. So the total light output (lumens) isn't that much different among quite a few of the bright lights. (You can verify this, as I have, with a Quickbeam type light box which gives an output approximately proportional to the lumen output, if you have several of the brighter lights.) So among these lights, higher lux basically means a more tightly focused beam. There's some difference in loss through the window (lens) and reflector, but I doubt that it's usually a big factor. A light like the MRV has a very high lux reading, and sure enough, its beam is very narrow. It's great for spotting things a long way off, but a poor light for lighting up a yard to see what's there. A P3D has about the same lumen output but lower lux -- its beam is a lot broader, and it would be better for the yard inspection. The statement about beam width is really a simplification -- a sizable fraction of a light's total lumens can also be radiated in the "spill". The more light in the spill, the less there is for the main beam, and the lower the lux reading in the brightest part of the main beam. But spill is very often a useful or even essential feature.

Then there's the flashlight you use for padding around the house when you wake up in the night. Most people want a very dim light for this, so as not to totally ruin their night vision. For this application, a very low lux value is best.

A lot of people also willingly trade a fair amount of lux for a smoother beam with fewer artifacts, by using an OP (orange peel) reflector rather than a smooth one.

Just like there's no "best" flashlight for all purposes, there's no "best" lux level either.

c_c
 

lukevsdarth

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
173
Location
Rio Grande Valley, TEXAS
Phaetos what do you want to light? A strong light to light up a neighborhood street then go for more lux like 18000 lux. Thats alot. You want a normal (Cree is the brand) LED flashlight that gives good battery life 2-4 hours. DX has a good one for 26 bucks it uses different batteries 18650, CR123A, it accepts from 3.6 volts to 9 volts. It has two modes Med, High. I bought this one myself and recommened it to two friends they say whiter and brighter than a fullsize rech. Maglite. http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2681


What batteries do you want to use? AA, AAA, CR123a, 18650 all can be rechargeable. You want a tiny little light with a good surprising amount of light 15 bucks. There is plenty here with AA but short runtime
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2821


Obvisiously this is new to you but keep reading here in the forum and you will learn here. Read the reviews

FRED:wave:
 

Latest posts

Top