Why Incan over led? (for LEO work)

Hey there guys,

Frequent lurker & slightly overwhelmed flashlight freshman here at the University of Light. I've been reading and learning for the last couple of weeks, trying to find the right light for my purposes.

I'm a full time LEO, working nights. I've been running a mag charger for the past 14 years, most of the time with no back up light. A year or so ago, I was given a Fenix L2P, and I was amazed at how this light could light up my entire bedroom when balanced on end. I bought a P1 shortly thereafter and it's become an edc item.

After a recent search in a heavily wooded area for a violent parole violating felon, I really began to realize the limitations of my MC. So, I found this place and after much studying, ordered a WA 1160, which I'm now waiting somewhat impatiently for. I can't wait to try this thing out!

I also realized I need a good back up light. At first I thought I wanted something I could holster on my duty belt, but the belt is already heavy and pretty crammed with other things. I'd have to start eating donuts and move up to a larger belt size for everything to fit. My first thought was a Surefire 6p or 9p with LF LA and lithium ion battery. Then I became intrigued by a Wolf-Eyes lights upgraded with a LF lamp assembly. I was leaning toward this. Now, however, I've begun reading up on The Tiablo A8 with Cree Q5. I read Stefan's terrific review, and my little brain became overloaded. This light seems near perfect to me, with its awesome throw on high and the low setting for more general use.

Most here have likely read all the "What light for a LEO" threads. I've read all I could find. Why do most suggest the Incan when great leds are also available? I want something that will assist me on a search in a wooded area, and something that will also be suitable as a force option by means of blinding light (the ASP on my belt handles the impact aspect), and has decent run time on a rechargeable and can be backed up by primary (?) cells.

So what do you think? Are leds equal to the task at hand? Or are the Incan fans on the money with their opinions about what's right for this type of work? Thanks for any and all input. I hope to finally be able to pull the pin and buy a nice back up before I retire in 11 years.

All the best!

Re: Why Incan over led?

My serious led flashlights are up to all tasks I can throw at them, and I have been using my Tiablo A8 and MRV's pretty hard for a while now. Sure, I have modded one MRV and both my Tiablos so they are a little brighter than stock (but in normal conditions you need a lux meter to tell the difference).

The strong opinions about either led flashligts or incandescent flashlights are like all the other never ending battles, PC vs. Mac or Volvo vs. Saab, just to name a few. I actually prefer using a flashlight with a cool white emitter over any incan I have tried or owned because they work better for me in all situations, better color rendering, better area illumination, better runtimes, no blown bulbs etc. But as always, that's just my personal opinion and preference.
Stefan

Re: Why Incan over led?

Thanks Stefan. Sorry about the misspelling, it's been corrected. Those Tiablos and MRVs look great. I'm getting closer to deciding, ty!

Re: Why Incan over led?

The only reason I can think of to favour an Incan. is because it
will soon fetch a high resale value on the antique market.

Re: Why Incan over led?

I don't know if you have seen this thread or this one. I think they make a point. I have spent a lot of time finding the camera settings that correspond to what I see with my eyes when I use these lights at night. I can really recommend either the MRV or the various Tiablos for the tasks you mention, the Tiablos outthrow the MRV with it's reflector geometry oriented towards max throw. If you can bear the weight a good Mäg 3D mod with an SSC P4 emitter is also a superior choice regarding runtime, they go for hours and hours..
Stefan

Re: Why Incan over led?

I did read the 2nd post linked in your reply, and I just finished the 1st. Great job, it certainly makes things a little easier for me. I'm still way behind the curve, slowing catching up. Thanks again.

Re: Why Incan over led?

Eamonn, color rendition can be a problem with some LED lights. In a city, or under street illumination, LED lights can get "washed out" and not help you see as much. Also, at night, under foggy or smokey conditions, incan beams "cut" through the haze much better than LED. In addition, unless you have a fancy aespherical setup, incans seem to "throw" more than LED lights.

Other than that, the regulation of LED lights, their size to output ratio, and the fact there's no need to carry spare lamps make them winners in my book.

Both LED an incan lights have strengths and weaknesses, and you'll need to choose the one that maximizes their strengths in whatever you're going to use the light for.

I'm sure a lot of these new brands popping up here and there on CPF are reliable enough, but I'd encourage you to stick with well established brands for your duty needs. You don't need a fancy, cutting-edge light failing on you while on a potentially dangerous stop or pursuit.

Re: Why Incan over led?

Pay attention to weight. The Wolf Eyes lights tend to be on the heavier side. I wouldn't want to carry my M90X all the time. I have an Ultrafire C2 that puts out almost as much light as the M90X for less than half the cost, 3 times the run time, much less weight and much smaller size.

Another nice thing about the C2 is that it only has one mode - high. I'd hate to have to worry about multiple modes in a survival situation.

The thing about color rendition is that it depends to some extent on the individual's color vision (and color blindness), which is pretty prevalent among males. My only point: don't rely on what works for others - you need to test for yourself.

I have found that incan seems to offer improved contrast outside especially in partially lit areas.My incan lights seem better at lighting over a distance while the LED lights offer better spill and beam quality.When trying to compare the differences I would suggest finding lights with similar output and reflectors(example-standard 3D Mag w/Magnum Star xenon bulb vs. 3D Magled).A light with substantially higher output than the other will offer better performance wether it is incan or LED.

Removed by user.

At the time most of those threads started, LEDs weren't as bright as they are now. Brightness has always been the primary consideration for a search/contact flashlight, in my opinion. This is also the opinion of a well known trainer who was with LAPD SWAT.

I carry a Wolf Eyes Boxer 24Watt High Intensity Discharge and Surefire M6 (with a Novatac 120T in my shirt pocket) which I've been carrying in different ways to see what works best. A current technique involves a belt keeper and a flex cuff.

These both put out tremendous amounts of light--more than any of the lights on my vehicle. They are not cheap, though.

You might also look at the Tigerlight, Wolf Eyes M300 and other Wolf Eyes Boxer models. I think all of these are brighter than any LED light, though the high intensity discharge models take time to warm up.

JNewell said:

The thing about color rendition is that it depends to some extent on the individual's color vision (and color blindness), which is pretty prevalent among males. My only point: don't rely on what works for others - you need to test for yourself.

Click to expand...

Straight up true.

And also how each individual processes the input.

Just because I'm thoroughly convinced incan is best for me in the woods sure doesn't mean that an LED won't work just fine for somebody else.

Re: Why Incan over led?

If anybody has ever walked around a large garden at night (I'm talking a plant/vegetable ENTHUSIAST's garden here... with standing room only) they can clearly see that Incans allow you to see all the life that's in there, easily. All the brown roots, all the green catepillars, everything as natural as the sun (which is what I'm most used to) can be easily spotted in a natural setting like that. But my LEDs cast an eerie and very sterile beam across the garden, which is fine for walking around I suppose but for spotting a potential suspect? I would take my Incan over a LED for woodland use anyday

Actually I'm not sure that there are that many people left who recommend incans over LEDs for most normal uses. It's almost a fake controversy these days.

There are some people who still do, of course, but even they seem to have a preference for certain expensive brands (mainly surefires) so when they say incans are superior what they are really trying to do is make a case for certain expensive (again, usually surefire) incans.

From what I remember, several months ago the incan against LED discussions were a lot more heated than they are now.

Basically, with LED runtimes/outputs increasing all the time, we are well past the point where the incans are competitive on both of those dimensions. Sure, you can get an incan that blasts LEDs, but it also eats 6 expensive lithium primaries in an hour to do it. Or you need a big wattage HID, and a very big and heavy li-ion rechargeable battery that can keep it going for some fraction of 1 hr.

The next evolution in LEDs is actually already here, although we don't have the flashlights just yet. 3xRebel LEDs, in a star formation, cost $12 and can put out 300-400 lumens for probably much longer runtimes than any incan with that kind of output.

What you are left with are arguments such as incans cut through bad lighting conditions better (fog or smoke?) or have better color "rendition."

Personally I think these arguments don't hold much water, but even if they do, they are not powerful or convincing or important enough to tilt the balance back toward incans.

Even if such conditions ARE important to you, you can get special LED flashlights to deal with them. For example, certain colors penetrate fog better, so you just get those colors in LED. And certain reflectors (eg., Streamlight survivor LED light) are shaped to give a very narrow and penetrating beam to deal with smoke and particles.

I think you have some good choices already for a backup light, you might also consider a slightly smaller Lumapower light than the MRV, the new M1-R, which has enough light to be a backup but still has big throw and lumens.

you'll have your magcharger with 1160, if you haven't replaced the battery pack in awhile, I suggest picking up a NIMH pack for it (I think you can have a pack building place make one for ya)... then just buy a good NIMH pack charger and rig it to the cradle. This will give you a nice performing reliable incan light with plenty of punch. Since you'll already have that base covered, I say go for the Tiablo to give you a friendlier sized light with great punching power and efficiency.

From my limited time here on CPF, I believe that most people's opinions on LED versus Incan (those who actually own quality in both depts, not just their stock 6D MagLite versus their Ultrafire LED) is simply "the right tool for the right job". If you do alot of manhunting/searching around in the woods then a good high powered Incan will make things look more natural to you, which could easily translate to faster reaction times and greater saftey.

Thanks for the thoughtful answers. I think I'll end up with the LED for now, and maybe I'll put together a nice Incan later on. As mdocod noted, I'll already have a pretty powerful incan when my 1160s arrive. Thanks for all your help. Now all I have to do is figure out which LED I should buy. Sounds simple enough

As has been said before by several people, it's YOUR perception of what you see when you turn a light on as to whether it's right for you. Me, I can't stand Incan lights, though I'm sure I will have a few high power ones just because. To me, LED's give a better light to see with, I think Incan's wash out color and depth due to the yellowish tint most give off. So it's a wash either way. Use what looks better to you.

For most jobs, I would think today's high-powered LED lights (Tiablo A9 for example) would satisfy most requirements for most folks. HOWEVER, if you are a LEO constantly in the middle of break-in entries of dusty, smoke filled houses, or just a flashaholic, you should have at least one powerful incan (300+ lumens) to rely on, as incans do seem to penetrate through fog, steam, and dust a little better than our current LEDs, this could change in the near future though.

I personally recommend the Wolf Eyes 9M Cobra with a 320 lumen bulb, runs ~ 60 minutes on 3 cr123s.