Is a Surge really brighter than P90 and where are Surge beam shot?

According to Brock's site http://www.uwgb.edu/nevermab/flash.htm , at 7 meter (CP), the surge is brighter than a p90 (28 vs 22). P90 is rated at 105 lumen.
Is this really trure? I have read somewhere here that the Surge is a bit dimmer than the 8NAX which is rated at 110 lumen.

Could anyone verify this? Also are there comparison beam shots between the Surge and various Surefire beams? The only place I saw is a beam shot between the Surge and UKE Cannon Light (?) from led museum.

Thanks a lot,

Ake

I have a few pics Here

The Surge is probably brighter than the P90 & 8NX. The beam is not real pretty though. For the money & the fact it uses cheap batteries makes it a great buy.

As much as I like all my SF's, SL's, LED's, & a bunch of other lights, I think $ for $, the Surge is the best all around utility light on the market today. Anyone not owning one is missing a great light. Just my 3 cents. TX

I'm ordering one from Tim.

I really was impressed by the Surge at the SS2002.

Al

We compared the beams of the PT Surge against a SF 8AX. The Surge running on NIMH batteries is brighter than the *AX, and puts out a larger beam. But like Sean mentioned, the SFs puts out an even beam. You will not be dissappointed with the Surge, as my brother-in-law who owns the 8AX, is buying a Surge. He still has not found a buyer for his 8AX. He might have problems selling it for the cost he purchased it for. He doesn't want to take a loss on this very expensive light. He feels he got burned as he was expecting something much more. He's just hates the less than 45 minutes of bright run time on the 8AX. At less than two years old, he is on his second battery pack. He looks at the 8AX as a high maintenance light.

PT and SF are made for different tasks. I've yet to see a Surge mounted on an MP5 used by the Seal Team. Or a Surge on a Policeman's duty belt.

Then again, I've yet to see an 8AX used by a diver at 100ft below.

I think that comparing the 9P to the Surge is like comparing an SUV to a Sports car. Both have certain advantages and dissadvantages. We will get nowhere arguing this one.

If you need a combat light , then the Sure Fire is the way to go!.

I don't think that anyone is upset here, Just comparing light output for a light that is probably going to be used 3-4 times a week and reside in a drawer the rest of the time I think that most people (not CPF'ers) would choose a $5 2d light and be satisified. I wish princeton tec would go "over the counter" with a few lights in discount stores.

this is not meant to stir up controversy just a friendly note I have to agree with Txwest here

That's why I specified "best all around utility light". If my life depended on my light, it wouldn't be a Surge. But for everyday use, for less than $30, it's a great light. TX

Yes the Surge is a bit brighter, but as many people have mentioned the beam isn't as smooth. The Surge also has a tighter beam then a P90 beam, they put out close to the same lumens, but the Surge can be focused to a tighter spot.

I would recommend this light to anyone who can't or doesn't want to spend the $ for a Surefire. And if you dive, this is the best light for the $.

I haven't recently played around with my PT400. This is a double barrelled 4C light that is roughly the size of the Surge with a similar switch. TTS sells the PT400 for the same $22.95 price as the Surge.

The PT400 comes with a 5.2 V .85 A HPR50 bulb, but various "real" and "synthetic" PR bulbs could be run in it. (Synthetic PR bulbs would be T-2 1/4 or T-2 1/2 bulbs in a Carley PR #912 socket base)
Eventually I'll find out how much Wattage the PT400 can handle on rechargeables. (Considerably more than the PT40, I suspect.)

The Carley 3.7 V or 5.0 V 1.7 A Krypton Stars hopefully will not melt the reflector. The 5.0 V 1.25 A Ikelite HPR bulb should generate about 125 L. (vs. 105 L for the P90 and something more for the Surge.) (Ikelite claims their bulb is 50% brighter than the 84 lumen 5.2 V .85 A HPR50 bulb that comes with the PT400.

I'd like to test the Welch Allyn bulb # 01319 in a Carley #912 PR socket. It is rated at 4.80 V 1.92 A and 204 L. Since #912 sockets cost only $1.00 each I'm willing to see if one or more sockets get heat damaged after awhile at this amperage. If the reflector stands up, this is the same amount of light as a P91 generates. I'll be testing this same bulb (without the PR base) in some Energizer DB 4AA's running 4 A cells in serial and may also use them in DB 8AA's in serial / parallel to get a 2 1/2 hour run time. The 9.22 Watts this bulb generates so far seems to be within the Energizer DB OEM plastic parts' heat tolerance range, and I hope it will also be for the PT400.

I currently run both 3000 mAh NiMH C's and 2300 mAh Nicads in various lights, but I understand people's reluctance to invest in rechargeable C and D cells if they don't already have them. (Heck, I can even use my 2450 mAh NiMH A cells in a C adapter in a pinch.)

If you want to get PT over the counter, look in your phone book for dive shops. I found them locally that way. I wasn't trying to stir up anything. Heck I'm a Flashaholic, I love to collect all kinds of lights. I have several PT and think the Surge has great output for the price!

If PT would make changing the battery easier on the Surge, it would be better though. You need dry sticky fingers to change the batteries.

Shortly after I got my Surge, I changed out the batteries to NiMH's just to see the difference. After a short time, I switched back. I must have done something wrong, because I don't remember haveing a problem with it. That's the main complaint I hear about the Surge, but I didn't experience it. Oh well, maybe next time. TX

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WarrenI:
We compared the beams of the PT Surge against a SF 8AX. The Surge running on NIMH batteries is brighter than the *AX, and puts out a larger beam....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WarrenI,

I've never used rechargeables and I'm curious to know what sort of runtime you get with NiMH's and approximately what percent of that is bright runtime?

Brightnorm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lemlux:
I haven't recently played around with my PT400. This is a double barrelled 4C light that is roughly the size of the Surge with a similar switch. TTS sells the PT400 for the same $22.95 price as the Surge....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lemlux,

The PT 400 is an excellent light, but I've come to prefer my UKE SL4 mainly for reasons of ergonomics and beam. I've also belt carried it as well as the Surge and found them both relatively comfortable.

I'd like to ask you the same question I asked warrenI: (I'm assuming you have a Surge; if not I'd also be interested in the PT 400 figures). what runtime do you get with rechargeables, and approximately what percentage of that is bright runtime?

Brightnorm

This is what I found in my own informal testing of the 8AX versus the Surge. Running fresh alkalines and focused down to it's brightest spot, the Surge has a slightly hotter spot then the 8AX. The 8AX has a smoother beam and much better spill light. Running nimh's in the Surge, the 8AX has a slightly brighter hot spot. If beam issues being the only consideration, I prefer the 8AX for around the house use which is what I mainly use these lights for. Lights up a larger area fairly brightly. Of course there are other issues and bulb issues aside (I have blown two 8AX LA's), I would not buy the light again. Even comparing it against other Surefires, I don't think it's a good value for the price. It rips right through the battery packs and because you have to remove the battery from the light to charge it, I seem to never have the second battery charged when this happens. I still don't know why Surefire or a second manufacturer has not come up with a nimh battery pack for this light.

As myself and other's have mentioned in previous threads, you can get two and a half hours or better of nearly steady light output, using nimh's in the Surge although at a noticeable but not huge drop in light output compared to using fresh alkalines. This light is far and away the best value for incandescent flashlights.

I agree that the Surge is bang for your bucks. I've got a 8nx and the intial batts were defective. SF replaced them and now one of them is defective. So, I'm not happy about this batt situation. I thought the batt problem had been solved but maybe not.

BrightNorm:

I don't know what my run time would be with my Surge. That's because I run it with Alkaline Rechargeables. This particular type of rechargeable seems to be well suited for drain environments of .55 mA to .70 mA if it is recharged after no more than an hour of use. I like to keep the Surge batteries as close to 1.5V output as I can.

Alkaline battery capacity drops rapidly with amperage, but the rechargeable alkaline remaining rechargeable life drops only in relationship to the actual current delivered.

I tend to recharge these alkaline rechargeables frequently and use them in the Surge where the additional voltage compared to NiMH's makes a brightness difference. If I were using the Surge on an extended trip I would put in normal disposable alkalines.

I agree that the UKE SL4 is ergonomically more convenient than the PT400, primarily due to the more compact head. For admittedly totally irrational reasons I find something about the SL 4's design less aesthetically pleasing than the Ikelite / PT design. The 5.5 W Xenon Lamp Reflector Assembly # 80501 offers little or no opportunity for substitution. I would guess that the wattage is probably rated at close to 5.5 V and 1.0 A unless the marketeers are referring to an instantaneous turn-on output of 6.0 V and .9A.


If I didn't already have all the rechargeable C batteries I need, I would buy 4500 mAh NiMH's which are available in the $7 @ range on the net. After choosing the highest wattage bulb the specific flashlight would non-destructively handle I would estimate that the bright run time would be something like 75% of the battery's capacity divided by the bulb's drain.

If, for example, you run a Carley 1.7 A bulb and a 4500 mAh rechargeable C, this would suggest bright life of 1.98 hours = .75 * 4500 mAh / 1700 mA.

Rechargeable D cells come as high as 8500 mAh capacity.

Remember that rechargeables have a relatively flat voltage output reduction from 1.2 V to 1.0 V under load for the vast majority of their charge. This is an output decline of 17% over the useful run time. The voltage output decline for alkaline useful capacity is a steeper 1.5 V to .9 V which represents a 40% decline.

If you ran 1800 mAh NiMH's in your Surge the 1.10 A bulb would draw .55 A per cell. Using the previously stated formula I would expect to get good brightness for 2.45 hours = .75 * 1800 mAh / 550 mA.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lemlux:
.....
If you ran 1800 mAh NiMH's in your Surge the 1.10 A bulb would draw .55 A per cell. Using the previously stated formula I would expect to get good brightness for 2.45 hours = .75 * 1800 mAh / 550 mA....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lemlux,

Many thanks for that comprehensive post. It is almost like a mini instruction manual, very useful and informative and exactly what I was looking for.

One last question. Wouldn't LiIONS be the best rechargeables? They have high capacity, function well under heavy load and self-discharge modestly compared to NiCADS and NiMH's. Do they come in AA? If so, why doesn't everyone use them, and if not, then why don't manufactures tap what I believe would be a large market?

No more questions!

Brightnorm

BrightNorm:

Others have posted on CPF that LiIons have limited maximum drain rates before expensive internal circuitry shuts them off protectively. I don't remember the limits, but the chemistry would seem to offer more potential for LEDs than for incandescents.

I suggest you do a search on LiIons in the battery etc. forum for more knowledgeable inputs. You have just read the totality of my knowledge on the topic.