Next step up from a Fenix Rebel P3D?

I'm thinking of buying a P3D with OP, but I would like to know if there is a light that I can spend some more on, without going insane, that is worth the extra?

My must-haves are:

- Decent size to use with gloves (otherwise I'd buy an AA Jetbeam - my pre-Cree JB has terrific build quality)

- Pocketable (I think a Wolf Eyes Defender or CL1H would just qualify)

- Decent range of brightness levels - at least one in between 20 and 200.

- *Not* a super thrower. Not a wall of light either - a reasonable, middle of the road beam. Fitting a diffuser is a definite option if it's not too tricky.

- Must have regulation and be able to run off some sort of rechargeable cell.

- Ability to take a secure lanyard

- Physically reasonably tough, waterproof in the heaviest rain.

Things that would be nice:

- Scalloped bevel

-Ability to take some sort of disposable cell

-Good quality pocket clip

- Tail stander

- Level memory

- Upgradeable pills

- Multiple reflectors

To me this seems the most obvious specification for a light in the world, but I'm having problems! The Dereelight's seem like they have too concentrated a beam, even with OP? The Wolf's are only 2 stage with 20 lumens or 200, and I would really need a setting around 40 or 60.

A lot of what I want the light for is walking in the dark. Part of the route I take combines utter darkness for my feet with a high level of background light in the distance. Add in heavy rain (absorbing light in the air and playing hell with my spectacles) and even the 30-ish lumens of a JB one isn't quite what I'd want for placing my feet - but I suspect 200 would be quite blinding!

Check out the NovaTacs. If you only need the 85 lumen model and don't want to spend the extra cash on the 120, it's just over $100, but if you have the extra cash and need/want the 120 lumen output, grab the 120P. You won't be disappointed!

The SureFire L1.

jcompton said:

Check out the NovaTacs. If you only need the 85 lumen model and don't want to spend the extra cash on the 120, it's just over $100, but if you have the extra cash and need/want the 120 lumen output, grab the 120P. You won't be disappointed!

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Too small for me, I'm afraid. Most single 123 lights are pain using heavy gloves - I need something big enough to stick out at both ends of my hand - Inova X5 size was just right. And I don't see what I'd be getting over the P3D - I'm guessing that the Nova is tougher, but paying twice the cash for less (depends how they're measured?) brightness isn't something I'd do easily.

Outdoors Fanatic said:

The SureFire L1.

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A nice light, but seems like what I don't want. Only two brightness levels, and too much of a spot. Possibly too small as well. Looking at the beamshots on

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/169306

then the Fenix is much what I want. I want "like the Fenix but better". The L1 may or may not be better, but I think it is definitely very different.

thiswayup said:

Too small for me, I'm afraid. Single 123 lights are pain using heavy gloves. And I don't see what I'd be getting over the P3D - I'm guessing it's tougher, but paying twice the cash for about the brightness isn't something I'd do easily.

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There is quite a bit to gain in going with the novatac over the P3D, and not just in durability, which if all else were equal, would be enough for me. I don't feel like typing a page and a half as to why the NovaTac is an all around superior light than the P3D. Yet if size is an issue, you might want to search around for someone selling an 18650 extension tube for an HDS. I guess for me, it's not just about the MAX brightness. It's more about how much light I need for a specific task, and how easily can I get that level of output from my light. The Novatac has over 20 levels of output to choose from, plus all that strobe, SOS and flash garbage that I personally can't stand, but unlike the Fenix, it keeps it out of the way unless you need it. The odds of you accidentally strobing an innocent bystander are much greater with the Fenix, not to mention that you can forget about a momentary on/off all together with that Fenix reverse clicky :thumbsdow. As far as using the P3D with gloves, the novatac will be much easier to operate especially in a cigar style grip.

I am not trying to sway you to purchase a more expensive NovaTac over a lower priced Fenix, but the adage "you get what you pay for" still reigns true. I own Fenix lights as well as NovaTacs and if I could only choose one, the NovaTac would be with me and the Fenix left at home almost every time. Unless you plan on acting in the true CPF spirit and decide to buy both :thumbsup:, in which case you can put the one you don't like as much on B/S/T or just keep it anyway . Another nice thing about the NovaTac is that as durable as it is, you will most likely have it quite a while (unless you sell it off) and if you ever decide that you need a little more out of it, you can always send it off to WHC to have it modded.

jcompton said:

I am not trying to sway you to purchase a more expensive NovaTac over a lower priced Fenix, but the adage "you get what you pay for" still reigns true.

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No, that's a terrific explanation. Thank you. The one thing I take issue with is that the single cell Nova would be easier - for me - to operate, even while using gloves. It wouldn't be, because it is too small to hold comfortably an firmly in a hammer grip - the light has to go all the way through my palm. I disagree about holding the light cigar style as well: different people have different hands and preferences, and looking at the Novatac I know that it is too small for me.

Buying a light in one place, and a tube in the other and hoping that they play nicely together sounds tempting, but I've had problems there before, and don't want things to get that complicated again, or risk being stuck with a light I can't use comfortably.

Re. the Nova and the Fenix, looking at beamshots makes me think that the two companies are "calculating" lumens very differently. I was far too trusting! Pity the Nova is too small for - I've experimented again, and wearing those gloves I definitely need something in the Inova X5 range.

They ARE calculating lumens differently. Or at least they are "listing" lumens differently. Surefire and Novatac both try to list the actual amount of light coming out of the flashlight (a.k.a. "torch lumens") -- although even that is an estimate. Fenix is like most other companies when it comes to lumens listings. They show "emitter lumens", or the amount of light being produced by the LED itself (at least, the amount theoretically produced). There are numerous threads on CPF about the difference, and why not all the light that is produced actually makes it out of the flashlight. For incandescent lights, the figure of 65% is usually given as being a good average (here is part of a long -- and sometimes contentious -- thread about incandescents). Whether the 65% figure applies completely to LED's is a good question. But you certainly won't get 200 lumens out the front of a P3D (nor will you get the listed lumens output from just about any other flashlight, either, unless it is one of the aforementioned companies).

It is still certainly posssible that a P3D will produce more light than a Novatac 120. But remember that in order for the human eye to "see" twice the brightness in light actually takes a 4X increase in brightness. Thus, differences of a few lumens are not likely to be apparent. In short, the Novatac 120 and the P3D are probably pretty close in terms of actual light output, or least what you can perceive as actual output.

How about the Wolf Eyes Guider with the 4 mode option lamp.
http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-99-120-6387

Novatac

jcompton said:

There is quite a bit to gain in going with the novatac over the P3D, and not just in durability, which if all else were equal, would be enough for me...

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Novatac looks like a robust EDC light with a useful UI! ..pretty tempting..

jcompton,
1. How is the polycarbonate lens holding up against scratches, etc?
Sounds like that would get beat up pretty fast.
Is there a Glass lens option? Or aftermarket glass that can be put in?

2. Would you have runtime #s for the 10 Lumen level?
I've found runtimes for Max 85/120 levels.. and also mention of "up to 10 days" at the 0.3 Lumen level.

Hmm.. decisions.. EDC, T, P, 85, 120..

Man, I'm a big Fenix fan and have had several, but the Novatacs are starting to look more and more appealing. I'm looking for a small EDC light...

FlashKat said:

How about the Wolf Eyes Guider with the 4 mode option lamp.
http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-99-120-6387

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On the spec I gave, it's perfect - thank you!

Unfortunately, the strike bezel at the rear means that in the UK I'm fairly sure that it will be regarded as an offensive weapon - scalloping at the front has a non-weapon purpose, but I'm not aware of any for scalloping at the back.

I was beginning to think my choices were between the P3D and a Deree OP with a diffusing film fitted, but having seen beamshots comparing the two, *maybe* the Deree would be ok without the diffuser. Another attraction of the Deree is the new three-stage pill, with no flash modes to get in the way.

As far as I know, there is no strike bezel at the rear of the Guider. There is a charging jack, and a compass.

thiswayup said:

On the spec I gave, it's perfect - thank you!

Unfortunately, the strike bezel at the rear means that in the UK I'm fairly sure that it will be regarded as an offensive weapon

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I am a mid level flashaholic here. I have most likely spent less than $3,000 all together on lights in my lifetime. (not counting batteries) I have owned 8 SF lights (mostly incan) 1 HID and 20+ led lights. The most I have ever spent on a single light has been in the $300+ range.

Like I said, there are those who have had WAY more lights than I have had and spent Way more money on them, and are much more of a expert on the topic than I am. But I have had a few good lights anyway.

My point is, I have never had as good of an edc light as the P3D100. I is small enough and light enough to be caried in a front slacks pocket. It never comes on accidentally in my pocket. It can tailstand, and has the best UI of any light I have owned. One push will always be turbo. One simple barrel twist will always be low, with med and high less than a second away if I want them. And No light I have ever owned has a better tint, or lights up the 10-15' in front of me better.

I think you can buy brighter, smaller or more expensiive lights than the P3DR100, but I have yet to find a step up in a edc light.

Just my .02

woodrow said:

I am a mid level flashaholic here. I have most likely spent less than $3,000 all together on lights in my lifetime. (not counting batteries) I have owned 8 SF lights (mostly incan) 1 HID and 20+ led lights. The most I have ever spent on a single light has been in the $300+ range.

Like I said, there are those who have had WAY more lights than I have had and spent Way more money on them, and are much more of a expert on the topic than I am. But I have had a few good lights anyway.

My point is, I have never had as good of an edc light as the P3D100. I is small enough and light enough to be caried in a front slacks pocket. It never comes on accidentally in my pocket. It can tailstand, and has the best UI of any light I have owned. One push will always be turbo. One simple barrel twist will always be low, with med and high less than a second away if I want them. And No light I have ever owned has a better tint, or lights up the 10-15' in front of me better.

I think you can buy brighter, smaller or more expensiive lights than the P3DR100, but I have yet to find a step up in a edc light.

Just my .02

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well put. that's how i feel about my l2d ce, and i don't have to be nervous about my batteries exploding on me either. lol

bondr006 said:

As far as I know, there is no strike bezel at the rear of the Guider.

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Well, that's good news - puzzling over the photo's I've seen it looked as if there was - there was looked like scalloping there, although less aggressive than at the front. Maybe there's a cutaway to make working the clickie easier, and the photo was taken from exactly where it shows?

Jason - very useful; thanks!

actually that was all woodrow, but i will take credit for being scared of cr123 batteries. :duck:

Re: Novatac

tony22r said:

Novatac looks like a robust EDC light with a useful UI! ..pretty tempting..

jcompton,
1. How is the polycarbonate lens holding up against scratches, etc?
Sounds like that would get beat up pretty fast.
Is there a Glass lens option? Or aftermarket glass that can be put in?

2. Would you have runtime #s for the 10 Lumen level?
I've found runtimes for Max 85/120 levels.. and also mention of "up to 10 days" at the 0.3 Lumen level.

Hmm.. decisions.. EDC, T, P, 85, 120..

Click to expand...

I swapped my polycarbonate lens for a UCL from flashlightlens.com for around $5 and have had no problems at all, but from what I understand, the poly lens is supposed to be pretty durable. For $5 though, I couldn't pass it up.

As far as runtimes, I think someone did a runtime graph for each level or every other level but you might want to do a search here on CPF to see what info is available on the NovaTacs. All I know, from personal experience, is that if I drop in a fully charged RCR123 when the light has been used extensively for a couple of days I will not have to worry about being left in the dark. I have never even seen the low battery warning.