weapon laws in the UK,confused.

It seems we are heading for a zero tolerance on any kind of weapon.That maybe fine in a ideal world,but not in the one we are all living in now.
Sometimes fists are not enough to deter attackers especially multiple.So what options do we have,well none really.For instance I asked a P.O this,"can I EDC my SAK spirit plus",it is best not to was his answer,as it has locking blades,but I could carry a 3" non locking blade as long as I did not use it for defense:thinking: in fact it is best not to carry any pointed object:thinking: was another answer.so came the crunch question can I EDC a flashlight for defense,"yes" to my relief came the answer wait for it, as long as I did not hit my attacker with it as this could be deemed excess force.And the list went on,and this is my conclusion.If you get attacked in the UK dont hit back, phone the Police at once.:thinking:" If you are still able,but then I guess that is why we get free medical care.

I have always liked this old west saying of "God created man, but Sam Colt made them equal." (there are several variants--I don't know who it is originally credited with this saying).

Always wondered how a 95lb woman is supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law with respect to a 300 lb weight lifter intent on who-knows-what... Break the legs and arms of everyone over 95 lbs? (not to say that every big guy has ill intentions towards others around them).

It is so sad to see self defense by citizens so hated by the "modern state"... Especially in the UK where limits to the power of the king/state were codified by the Magna Carta.

-Bill

Good reply,what is ironic is this.P.O,s can use pepper spray,cs gas ? I think that one has now been taken away,but 50,000 volt tassers,steel whips and batons,guns as a last result.But Joe public has to rely on his own flesh,get this,you can not use a leg of lamb if it causes injury

AFAIK you're not allowed to carry any object for "self-defense" in public in the UK. I even worry about carrying my SAK around (even though it is legal last time I checked) but even so there is no way I would consider using it as a weapon, even if threatened with one. A knife fight aka Michael Jackson's "Beat-it" is just stupid and a knife can always be turned against you - turning a heated, but mostly benign, argument into a potentially lethal situation.

I believe you can use physical force (ie: grapple/punch) if you feel, and are seen to be, threatened (the "seen to be" is important as you'll probably need to prove that point in court).

Adding to the confusion, New Labour have brought in loads of new "frameworks" for dealing with "anti-social" behaviour and I have read that the police consider "even penknives" as offensive weapons. The fact is, if you have them on your person for the purpose of self-defense then they are. And I'm not quite sure how you would prove that they are not there for that purpose. So I hope the media is just hyping things up.

The UK has become a much more dangerous place to live in. In our street, only those houses with double glazing, heat sensitve floodlights and flashing alarm boxes are relatively safe. Carrying anything can get into trouble with the law unless a legitimate purpose can be established. I would have thought carrying a torch, even a big Mag, would be OK as long as you say you need to use it as the fuses have blown so often lately or that there seem to be foxes visiting your backgarden. Knives I am not too sure about. It is a shame that we have to find excuses to carry something for self-defence.

I say again. Carrying a knife for self-defense, even if you are "legally" carrying it it a bad idea. If you threaten someone with a lethal weapon, you are putting your own on the line as lethal force may be required to repulse you. Quid pro quo. Better to try to calm the situation down and leave the people with knife-proof vests to do the heroics, if it's required. Learning martial arts is a good idea though - as well as physical defense, it also teaches you mental discipline, much more important IMO.

BB said:

It is so sad to see self defense by citizens so hated by the "modern state"...

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But if you think about this a bit it makes perfect sense, at least as far as serving the self interests of those in power. If more citizens were able to defend themselves, fewer criminals would live to go to trial. This means less need for lawyers to defend them and staff to run the courts. Furthermore, fewer would be criminals in the first place since the odds would be stacked against them. Again, less need for anybody associated with criminal justice. Disarming citizens creates a huge demand for lawyers, courts, jails, etc. Since the groups who run these institutions are usually friends of the politicians, it's easy to see how these laws get passed even when most of the citizenry is against them.

Sadly, I see the US heading the same way as the UK. Some cities like New York are already practically there. Unfortunately, the politicians fail to understand that making something illegal doesn't make it go away. Criminals are just that. They won't heed any weapons laws. These laws just have the unfortunate effect of turning armed criminals into wolves among sheep (I'm not using that term offensively here, just as an analogy). And giving citizens a choice between dying at the hands of a criminal, or ending up in jail for defending themselves.

JTR,

Oh, I certainly understand (IMHO) why modern states are heading down this road--I was just trying to avoid getting another thread closed for content.

-Bill

BB said:

JTR,

Oh, I certainly understand (IMHO) why modern states are heading down this road--I was just trying to avoid getting another thread closed for content.

-Bill

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Agreed. I'll avoid discussing it further for the same reasons, and stick to the main topic of the thread.

Yea as long as they're black it's OK to stop and search because most people here (in the UK) are white and therefore will not see it as a threat to their liberties. Classic political stunt. And racist for the bonus vote. Equal under the law? All you need is politicians.

I also think you can't directly compare the UK and the US on this matter.

Listen up guys, the US is next!

A quick comment on a very complex topic:
I am not by any stretch of the imagination a friend of the NRA; I don't like guns in general; tree-hugging peacemonger etc...

However crap like this upsets me. It's already bad enough that I have to think critically about what I put in my pockets when I go on a trip to California; when I can't bring a SAK or a bottle of water on an airplane.
You can be sure I'm not going to sit quietly whenever politicians try to take away our rights to carry a reasonable firearm, reasonable blade, etc. Self defense is a very valid reason to carry so long as you have been trained in its use. (Regular practice with it should be exercised as well IMO) Of course there will always be squabbles over what is reasonable, but flat out banning of firearms, blades, etc. is just plain stupid. Carrying a folding knife with the intent of self defense isn't a crime... whats next? Convictions for thought-crimes? :thinking:

Well here in the United kingdom, carrying any knife for the purpose of "self-defense" is a crime and rightly so IMO. You should be able to have an argument and not have to worry about being killed over it. If you stab someone in a fight, you are going to go to prison for a very long time.

Tubor said:

Learning martial arts is a good idea though - as well as physical defense, it also teaches you mental discipline, much more important IMO.

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I would imagine that you can expect martial arts to be next on the banned list once they make sure that no one can carry any other sort of weapon, making sure they can't use their feet and fists as weapons will be next on the agenda.

I remember when everyone was doing martial arts and the media/politicians were having a go at that too (mid-80's/early 90's) so I'm sure you're probably right. Using a knife for some sort of street combat is just stupid and should not be encouraged in my opinion. Of course in the States you can carry guns around and no one bats an eye-lid. But then people get shot more. Maybe if people were carrying knives around routinely I'd want to be armed too.

I don't think you can compare the situation here in the UK directly with the situation in the US. Culturally they are different - that's all I can say about it really. Obviously I want to be able to carry my SAK around but a knife-fight culture (you could call it a knife-defense culture if you want) isn't desirable either.

There is a UK-centric knife forum with a rather good law section aimed specifically at helping you understand our sometimes confusing laws:

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39


My take on the bottom line is; dont carry *anything* for the purposes of self defense. As soon as you do, this makes the item, be it a knife, can of hairspray or even a rolled up newspaper a weapon in the eyes of the law.

Unfortanately I have been picked up by the Police on many occasions thanks to my interest in Urban Exploration and I have been told more than once that carrying a torch (Flashlight) at night is enough to be classed as going equipped!

The laws in the UK are just plain stupid.

it is very sad indeed as one is presumed innocent unless proven guilty. In practice it is very often the other way round. But then sometimes it is necessary to be harsh for our protection. There is really no simple answer, is there?

LOL, I'm realy tring to not get sucked into this thread, but its to late

I decided, a while back, not to worry about this subject as much as i did, and now happily EDC a variety of objects that woud be considered very questionable, but all legal, so to speak.
I have a 6C or 6D hotwired mag in the car, a knife ( UKPK or simmilar like a douk douk) and a smaller E2e torch, and smaller cree. at least; Somtimes a large locking knife.

I guess I am going equipt, but I see that as my right as everything I have complies with the law ( just ) and I use all of it, but not to commit crimes. eg yesterday I used my UKPK all day on a number of cutting tasks and even to cut open a large can/ tin the otherday ( whilst at work in my coffeeshop BTW ) and used the Mag and other torch daily.

I dont carry them for self defence, but they are tools, but if the situation arose... well its probably better to say if I suddenly looked up and an attacker was looming over me now, i'd make the loon eat my keyboard and mouse.

Its best to chill out, go about your business, and use the tools around you, whatever they maybee, to overcome lifes challenges.