The Price of Freedom, the Horror of War

In another thread, the discussion drifted towards the pending war with Iraq, so I wanted to start another thread.

Please follow my thought process.

I don't WANT a war. NOBODY WANTS a war. Ask any soldier or civilian who has been in a war. Right wing, Left wing, conservative, liberal, democrat, republican, we ALL would prefer to live in peace.

People DIE in WARS. Young men, civilians, the enemy, children, they all die in wars.

So, I do UNDERSTAND the liberals and the Pope etc, when they say we should avoid a war.

BUT WE ALREADY ARE AT WAR. WE DID NOT STRIKE THE FIRST BLOW EITHER.

So, when people say we should try to avoid war, I AGREE, but THAT TIME HAS ALREADY PASSED. What I see people saying, is that we should really IGNORE the fact that the US is ALREADY AT WAR!

So we don't have invading armies with tanks and grenades, but we STILL ARE at war!

It is a different kind of war.

Remember the Revolutionary war? That was a "different kind" of war too. The colonies hid behind rocks and trees and wore cloths to blend in to the forest, whereas the English wore RED COATS and marched in straight lines. War was a "gentleman's game".

So the war we are CURRENTLY in, is a different kind of war. Instead of bombs, we have suicide bombers. People, currently living in the US, among us, who, at any second, could launch a terror attack. Who knows what they can do?

Look at the terror that faced the WASHINGTON DC area, when that sniper was shooting those people. That person was not even an official "Terrorist". NOW, what if the Terrorists starting doing the SAME thing, with 20 Terrorists, in 20 Cities. Heck, what if they picked cities within driving distances, and commuted? One Terrorist Sniper group could alternate between Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, and maybe Corpus Christi. They could have their weapons in each city, and when they travel, would not carry any weapons or any identifying articles (bullets, etc) they are just three people traveling on the highway. Think of the Horror that would ensue if 60 or 70 cities starting having sniper attacks.

We want to live free, but the PRICE of living free, is NOT FREE. The price of our freedom, sometimes is the ULTIMATE PRICE, the price of a human being.

Look at the Civil war. Without getting into the North/South debate (after all, I DO live in TX!), what if the people of that time tried to avoid war? Would America still have Slavery? You say, no, but tell me, what DAY would Slavery have stopped, had we not had the Civil war? While nobody can answer this hypothetical question, I would imagine that there would have been people keeping slaves way into the 20th century.

SADLY, the price of FREEDOM is NOT FREE.

Sometimes, we have to pay the ultimate price, and the horror of that is human life.

And the UN, HAD opportunity for many years (what was it, 12?), to enforce existing resolutions against Iraq. BUT LOOK, IRAQ SITS on the SECURITY SEAT for the United Nations!

So we shouldn't worry if we don't get UN Approval. After all, they don't DO ANYTHING to people who ignore their resolutions.

Make no mistake, WAR IS HORRIBLE, and that is something I do not hear many conservatives talk about, but we ALREADY ARE at war, and we have to defend or LOOSE our freedom.

Sometimes, we have to pay the ultimate price for our Freedom, the price of human lives, and that is horrible, but that is reality.

BuddTX, well said,
Sitting here in my sterile office with no blood, guts and burning flesh to impede my thought it is much easier to support a war. I think everyone needs to consider the horror not just the obvious benefit of a world without Saddam, my pro-war self included.

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BuddTX said:
...snip...BUT WE ALREADY ARE AT WAR. WE DID NOT STRIKE THE FIRST BLOW EITHER.
...snip...

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BuddTX - I think the following speach sums it up a LOT better than I could

"Mr. President, no man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

"Mr. President, it is natural for a man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it. I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove to be a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the instruments of war and subjugation -- the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy in this quarter of the world to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British Ministry have been so long forging.

"And what have we to oppose them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to treaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves longer. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the Ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation.

"There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free; if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending; if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon, until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained; we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight!! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

"They tell us, sir...that we are weak, unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature has placed in our power. Three millions of people armed in the holy cause of liberty and in such a country as that which we possess are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us.

"Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged. Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable -- and let it come!! I repeat it, sir, let it come!!!

"It is vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, peace, peace; but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?


"Forbid it, Almighty God -- I know not what course others may take; but as for me -- give me liberty or give me death!"

Very good thank you.

Nobody wanted to go to war with Hitler either in the 30's. They knew he was aggressive and he just kept pushing knowing and gambling that they wouldn't do anything. I view the situation in Iraq as the same thing. If we wait until he starts doing stuff he will have had all this time to prepare and it will be much worse. And everybody will clamor about why we didn't do anything sooner.

Nobody in their right mind wants to go to war. But sometimes you have to.

There are alot of us out there that feel the same way. May God make this short and decisive.

Semper Fi.

This is the price of freedom? Would one of you hawks please tell me a war we fought since WWII that resulted in the preservation of my/our freedom?

And don't say Afghanistan. At least not yet.

I'm sorry, but an Iraq war ain't a war for freedom. Vietman wasn't, Grenada wasn't, the Gulf War I wasn't, Panama wasn't, Korea wasn't, etc.

You can deluded yourself into thinking so if it makes you sleep better at night for killing thousands of innocent civilians. But that don't make it so.

Yes, we are already in a war. A war against terrorists. You can't wage a war against terrorism because it's a concept or a technique. Might as well have a war against evil. (Oh, I forgot that's what Bush thinks is his divine mission.) But our war against terrorists is being seriously sidetracked by this Iraqi thing. And we can't win a WAT if the rest or the world hates us. This is just what OBL wants. Unify the Muslims and Divide the rest of the world. Bush is playing right into his hands.

And the next Vet that spouts off about how he fought for my/their/our freedom better be from WWII or I don't want to hear it. I respect military personnel for subjecting themselves to the possibility of having to defend my freedom with their lives and I'm not "anti-military, but being used and abused for worthless wars and then tossed aside does not make a hero. It makes you a victim.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepy.gif

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And the next Vet that spouts off about how he fought for my/their/our freedom better be from WWII or I don't want to hear it because he's a victim, not a hero. I have gratitude and respect for heros, sympathy for victims.

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Peter.. I see you're not much into making friends. Ah well... takes all kinds to make this great big world go round. Ain't it great that you live in a place where you can say all that you just did? Ok... I'll get in touch with the cops in Tampa and let them know that you don't need them to protect your freedom... you got that covered with your self-righteousness.

wow sasha! well said, i couldn't have said it without callin him an ungrateful snotty POS.

maybe some soldiers who fought in any of those other wars that didn't count can pay you a visit eh?

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Sasha said:
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And the next Vet that spouts off about how he fought for my/their/our freedom better be from WWII or I don't want to hear it because he's a victim, not a hero. I have gratitude and respect for heros, sympathy for victims.

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Peter.. I see you're not much into making friends. Ah well... takes all kinds to make this great big world go round. Ain't it great that you live in a place where you can say all that you just did? Ok... I'll get in touch with the cops in Tampa and let them know that you don't need them to protect your freedom... you got that covered with your self-righteousness.

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Where did I say anything about cops? I have much respect and gratitude for them.

Anyway, I re-read my post and edited it somewhat as it did seem harsh regarding Vets. I guess I was too late for you Sasha. I have nothing against any veteran, from any war. But I get sick of hearing the ones who try to use their military service to invalidate the opinions of others.

How many times have you seen a variation of the following, usually in the context of an anti-war or other demonstration?

"I fought for your right to say that".

The implication being that if it wasn't for me, you wouldn't have the right, so shut up. Or, you have a right because of me so I have the right to tell you when and how you may exercise it.

Well, unless you're a WWII vet. You DID NOT fight for my right to say squat. You fought for other reasons, both good and bad, (whether you knew it or not). But you didn't fight for my rights. Not that you wouldn't. Just that you didn't. And I DO appreciate the fact that you were there just in case you REALLY had to fight for my rights and/or freedom. Same as I appreciate cops and for the same reason. Thank you.
(I've never had a cop say that I owed them my rights. Maybe that I didn't have any, but never that I owed them)

Not to deny the personal courage of those who fought in the various military actions since WWII, but none of those military actions had a damn thing to do with freedom or free speech in the U.S.. If you know differently, please enlighten me.

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tkl said:
wow sasha! well said, i couldn't have said it without callin him an ungrateful snotty POS.

maybe some soldiers who fought in any of those other wars that didn't count can pay you a visit eh?

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Sure, maybe they can explain to me how their particular war preserved my freedom.

Again, I'm not a soldier basher and I AM grateful they're there if needed to fight a righteous war. But they've been jerked and misused since forever. I'm on their side because I don't think they should be expected to sacrifice their lives for the economic interests of a few.
If they've been brainwashed and propagandized into believing they're fighting for my freedom, (ala Vietman), that's even more evil and egregious.

Peter,

Just to let you know, I VERY MUCH respect an individual's right to express themself. Our country is based on that principle.

However, I really like what Dennis Milller said on Leno. To paraphrase, (because I don't have a perfect memory", he said:

"Hey, if you are marching in a peace march, and that's your thing, more power to you. That's your right. BUT, if the guy next to you has a sign that says "BUSH IS HITLER", put down your peace sign, and beat the crap outta that guy!"

I do believe that America needs to be the peace keeper of the world.

My point in my first post, was that the conservatives are NOT talking about the horror of war.

They are "bashing" the liberals and the actors like Martin Sheen (and BTY, the actors should keep their view PRIVATE), without recognizing the the fact that PEACE IS A GREAT IDEA.

Peace is ideal, but after 9/11, the choice for peace was TAKEN AWAY from us.

And SPEAKING OF ACTORS, Charlie Sheen does a GREAT job playing the president on the West Wing. I watch it every week. Even though they are liberal in the show, and portray a liberal president, I think the show does a great job of showing "the process" of the behind the sceens in the white house.

BUT, Charlie Sheen or any other actor has no business using his or her fame to talk pro or against war. You want to go entertain the troops, great! Show support for the troops great.

I am not saying that they should change their beliefs. Like I said, America is built on differing beliefs. BUT, don't push it on me, I am not going to push my ideas on you.

PeterM,
What was the big problem with this thread, too civil, not hateful enough, not enough bashing?

I don't think I have the savvy needed to enlighten you but I will give you one direct example of how your freedom has been protected by the military since WWII. How about The Cuban missile crisis and blockade, does that qualify? Or the fact there were no nukes launched disqualify the little Cuba thing as well? Indirectly your and my freedom are protected every day just by the presence of the military, that's called a deterrent. Just like the police patrolling the streets is a deterrent and helps protect your freedom.

If you won't consider Afghanistan, Iraq or countless other places our troops have gone into harms way since WWII as defense of your freedom that's your business and that's fine with me. You having an opinion and sharing it here is fine with me. You making belittling remarks towards our military is fine with me, they are all your rights and I would certainly argue with anyone that wants to take them away. But, I and so many others that served but didn't fight in WWII protected your freedom then and now and I stand by that.

Let me be completely frank with you, I don't like your opinion, you present it as an attack, I also think you are dead wrong. But, I will stand up for you and not say you don't matter because every opinion counts.

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DieselDave said:
PeterM,
What was the big problem with this thread, too civil, not hateful enough, not enough bashing?

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No Dave, no problem w/this thread. Just drawing a distinction between wars fought for freedom and those not.


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I don't think I have the savvy needed to enlighten you but I will give you one direct example of how your freedom has been protected by the military since WWII. How about The Cuban missile crisis and blockade, does that qualify? Or the fact there were no nukes launched disqualify the little Cuba thing as well? Indirectly your and my freedom are protected every day just by the presence of the military, that's called a deterrent. Just like the police patrolling the streets is a deterrent and helps protect your freedom

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You're absolutely right. On the drive home tonight, I had the same thoughts and considered how to "correct" my original posts. You saved me the time. My mindset was actually fought wars and the way our soldiers are misused and discarded after combat. Those that are stationed as deterrents do, in a lot of cases, preserve our freedom. It's not exactly the same as "fighting" for our freedom, the way I so often hear the term abused, but without getting into semantics, the potential is there, your point is well taken and I will stand corrected on it.


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If you won't consider Afghanistan, Iraq or countless other places our troops have gone into harms way since WWII as defense of your freedom that's your business and that's fine with me.


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Afghanistan is debatable, through no fault of the enlisted ranks. The Taliban is back and Al-Qaeda will be regrouping there before long if we're not careful. The impact of that war on our freedom has so far been negligible. The other conflicts are and were humanitarian acts and/or an abuse of our military resources.

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You having an opinion and sharing it here is fine with me. You making belittling remarks towards our military is fine with me, they are all your rights and I would certainly argue with anyone that wants to take them away.

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I never belittled the military. I speak in defense of it and against putting soldiers in harms way for political and economic reasons. The life of a soldier should not be put on the line except as a last resort in the legitimate defense of our national security.


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But, I and so many others that served but didn't fight in WWII protected your freedom then and now and I stand by that.

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Thank you. And thanks for not abusing the fact. Again, I wasn't referring to you in my remarks. I was referring to the uber patriots who think they can dictate the terms of my freedom because they "fought" for it. You obviously do not fall into that camp.

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Let me be completely frank with you, I don't like your opinion, you present it as an attack, I also think you are dead wrong. But, I will stand up for you and not say you don't matter because every opinion counts.


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In my haste and passion, my "presentation" was kind of rough, I admit. I didn't mean it to come off so abrasively. My concern for our military leads me to be very P.O'd that they are so often used as playthings to enrich politician's cronies or provide political cover. My criticisms are also not directed at the combatants in wars of marginal legitimacy, such as Grenada or the Persian Gulf war. These men and women no doubt fought as hard and as bravely as if they were indeed defending our freedom. Criticism of vets is only directed at those who insist on trying to intimidate others out of exercising their freedom by insisting we owe that freedom to the fact they fought in Panama, Vietnam or Somalia or wherever. That attitude is a by-product of the mind conditioning which I suppose is necessary to persuade someone to fight in an illegitimate war. I'm glad you're not like that.

PeterM,
Nice post. Thanks for the retrospect. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I also don't want war. But I read something everyday that makes me think that The middle east is a very dangerous place these days Many of these items are never picked up by the press such as the fact that Syria has been helping Saddam by hiding chemical and biological warfare agents for him. That Syria has been purchasing formulas for biological and chemical weapons covertly from a former Soviet chief of chemical weapons development including a possible nerve agent capable of defeating all known NBC protective gear. That the Libyan Government has "Invited" a rogue doctor from South Africa known for his research on biological agents to participate in "unspecified projects" in Libya with the full encouragement of the current South African Govt.. These are things one can hear just from the intelligence grapevine, who knows what else is going on there.

I do know that in the 1930's a man named Adolf Hitler developed a buildup of military materiel in direct violation of the Armistice of WWI, while the world stood and watched, he proceeded to rapidly invade his neighboring countries dealing death and torture to those who stood in his way. The cost of life to disarm and defeat this individual after the fact is astounding, around 150,000 Americans Seven MILLION Russians and even three MILLION of his own people were killed, I am really not sure how many Poles, Dutch, French, Finish, English, Turkish, Romanian, Norwegian etc... are you getting the picture. You are talking about the costs of going to war now, what about the costs of not going to war. Do things have to escalate to the point that one chemical weapon launched into Israel forces them to nuclear retaliation. This is why the U.N. was formed, to have a forum to block these Loonies from gaining the foothold to starting WWIII. Have you considered that maybe the Iraqi people are ready to bear the costs. I remember seeing the Iraqi's and Kurds lining the highways as our Troops left Iraq at the close of the Gulf War waving bedsheets painted with the slogan "please help us defeat Saddam" and can only think that those people caught on camera and broadcast over satellite television are probably dead or in hiding, hunted by Saddam's police. Have you also noticed that All anti-war demonstrations inside Bagdad are STATE SPONSORED that, to the educated individual, means staged, for your benefit by folks either pressured by or seeking favoritism by Sadam's twisted regieme. Maybe to have a loved one released from prison Farook had to bring the whole family down to the parade ground for the nice media men to photograph holding signs saying "no war on Bahgdad". The world is so led around by the media, like a dog on a damn leash. This man invaded his neighboring country 12 years ago, his men tortured raped and murdered the inhabitants, their own Muslim brothers, then burned and looted on their retreat back to their own territory. I just don't understand what people are thinking "Don't resort to force" it's bull, losing a war did not deter this individual and he must be stopped. Modern warfare is more insurgent than past warfare but conventional weapons are still dangerous in the hands of those with no moral conscience.

When confronted with the estimate that a possible 100,000 civilian Frenchmen may be killed in the air raids of the D-day invasion the exiled French Governmental officials proclaimed that France must be free again at all costs. What good are the contitutional rights that we take for granted if they are not extended in part to all people of the world. I live about three blocks from the mass grave of 256 Maryland volunteers (part of a force of 400) who died charging a force of 2000 British Regulars and Hessian Mercenarys, to defend the retreat of the flegling Continental Army, they charged a fortified house, reinforced with canon, a total of six times driving the British from the position twice. When their assault finally was broken only eight made it safely back to the American Lines, The rest either surrendered to the British and were then imprisoned aboard squalid ships called prison hulks anchored in the east river near Rikers Island, where they died in droves, or they were hunted down and bayoneted by Hessian Jaegers in the woods of the land that is now prospect park. Most of my neighbors are either unaware of this history here in Brooklyn or don 't care and don't think it impacts anything about the way they now live. The grave of these heroes is lost under the buildings of bodyshops and heating oil companies who built business' these men payed for in blood overtop of them. The only monument near the site is a small plaque on the VFW post on that block. There is another in prospect park, overgrown and in disrepair as well as a monument to those who died aboard the prison hulks in fort green Park. I think about these men everyday, they are my brother statesmen from Maryland, they lived and died for an Ideal that is greater than all life and I try to live in their example. Many people march for a peace that would keep others without voice in slavery, under the gaze of the statues of those who fought to secure theirs and I shudder to think what these men would think of our lack of backbone in dealing with the worlds oppressors today. Life and death struggle was reality to them and it is for much of the world we don't even know today I would only wish the opportunity to offer them freedom, true, real, simple and I would gladly surrender my life for that if it came right down to it, and it may, and it may be someone elses freedom I'm buying with my blood. I don't like the Idea of being in the military (a little too much of a control issue with me and I don't agree with early hours ) but push come to shove I would go. Now it would be up to the Iraqis to maintain that freedom and over there assassination is the main form of regime change I mean Look at how much security Karzai needs now in Afghanistan, its the thirteenth century to them but it is a start, not in our image, but for them to mold in their own if they can. Freedom does have alot of enemies who believe that they know best for their people and most are greedy tyrants. Don't get me wrong we have them too it's just most people are lulled into thinking that giving up their constitutional rights a little at a time when led to believe thats whats right and civilized by the media and the left wing (sheeple), don't realize this is slow tyranny. I don't like war but I despise Tyrants.

Yes I would most definitely die for freedom, mine or someone elses! Very much worth it!

Don't live in freedom and deny the world of it because it's cost bothers you, you don't have yet to pay it because it's already yours! And denying it to the oppressed is speaking on behalf of the speechless and that is definitely wrong!


Sorry about the length.

Sincerely,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

"People sleep comfortably in their beds at night, knowing that rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -George Orwell

TSG68,
Welcome aboard. By the way, nice post!

Thanks for the welcome Dave and the comment about the post. I just feel that Americans wave the constitution around in the faces of the world and talk of the greatness of their freedoms, but are sometimes unwilling to help those not blessed by freedom, to attain it. I like to put my money where my mouth is. You know, to be a REAL ambassador for the Ideals we portray.

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

REAL freedom is never secure or safe from attack, and TRUE peace will only be won when it is! -me