Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

I just ordered a new digital D-mini with the Q2 led. I than looked at the Manufacturers Forum in the CPF Marketplace and MattK said the Q5 versions would be here soon. I am sure I will really like my new light (after all, I liked the old version) but part of me will wonder if I should have waited...to get 15-20 extra lumens. (maybe)

Than I had the thought... Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "Best throw...best tint...best...whatever..." match between all the other light manufactures. I think they might really be. I love my P3DR100, but wonder what the Q5 version is like. You buy a 6pl or g2l and that will most likely be the same 6pl or g2l you will buy a year from now.

Don't get me wrong, I love the "cutting edge" I am just starting to smile at Surefire's (possible...I am only guessing here) decision to avoid it all.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

I think they are being pretty smart. They know that their customers want a good quality light that can be run over by a tank and keep on going, but not necessarily a super bright, 300 mode, aaa powered light that costs $5. I love surefire products, i own an e2e, e2l, tw4, l4, m2, m3, a2, g2 and i love them all. But i also have a couple of fenixs and i like them too, for what they are. I am not bothered too much about having the extra ten lumens from the latest led, i would rather stick with what i have and upgrade when a massive leap in output comes, like from the lux3 to cree.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Yes Surefire do make great lights, but it doesn't look like they compete for best throw etc because this would put the costs up more I'm assuming, so it looks as if they stick to hardwearing products which will last the distance (lots of research and development, rather than trying to keep cutting edge and having lots of problems)....

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Thats exactly what i was saying, but rather more succinct! They are very good at what they do, why risk it?

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

One must remember that Surefire rates their lights as real lumens - light out the front, where as most Chinese lights are rated at the emitter, so the difference between the so called 'ultra-bright' leds and Surefires ones are relatively insignificant. I akin Surefire lights to a Porsche. It may not be the fastest, or most powerful, but it is certainly a well built all-rounder thats fun to drive... in our case: practical to use. :thumbsup:

The so called 'ultra-bright' manufacturers can be compared to the 'Big muscle-drag racing cars stuffed with a big fat turbo charger' it may be slightly faster but overall the performance lags behind the Porsche and it's no where near as well built either. A Flashlight today is no longer about the "lumen race" just as CPU isn't just about the Megahertz any longer, And a Surefire provides a piece of mind. :thumbsup:

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Just because they don't post the bin of the leds in their lights doesn't mean they don't put better leds in them when they become available

They use Crees and probably get good ones as well. Most of their customers wouldn't know, or care, if it had a Q4 or Q5 bin...

Sverre

but it would be interesting to hear the idea behind...

... with the incans, runtime is not important - compared to output
(and there are also the ultrahigh-output LAs)

why not with the led models?

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

yellow said:

but it would be interesting to hear the idea behind...
... with the incans runtime is not important - compared to output
(and there are also the ultrahigh-output LAs)
why not with the led models?

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I believe this has a lot to do with SureFire's growth into markets beyond Specialist Military, Gov't and Law Enforcement units.
Feedback to SureFire has indicated that users in the 'normal' military, Law enforcement and especially the civilian 'outdoor' market want runtime rather than output.

SureFire are concentrating on LED (and HID) R&D so this is where we are seeing new products with this new philosophy.

I expect that in due course SureFire will once again turn their attention to high output options for LED flashlights. However, the largest market sectors are being dealt with first from a retail perspective.

Al

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Well, if you want a Surefire with the latest and greatest LED...it is a fairly easy thing to do. Just get a P, C, M, or Z series light, and put in the newest P60 or P90 style LED drop-in available. These lights are future proof....just upgrade as the new LED drop-ins come out. :twothumbs

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Brozneo said:

Yes Surefire do make great lights, but it doesn't look like they compete for best throw etc because this would put the costs up more I'm assuming

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...because, with all the super-expensive lights they sell, they don't have enough money to afford it?

I can understand the sturdy and tough argument, and I can understand how the military and security forces may be less concerned with the total output and more with the capacity of the light to survive being dropped from a moving vehicle (say), but I can see no reason why the average flashlight-loving Joe should think the same way.

I, personally, do not want at all costs the latest super-duper emitter that's maybe 5% more efficient than the last in any light I might buy. However, if I pay (say) $300 for a flashlight that's supposed to be one of the best, it must have the best emitter that can be had at that moment, especially when lights costing many times less do.

It's a question of principle.

It's like getting a Lamborghini Murcielago, then discovering a Mitsubishi goes faster (which, I'll point out, is actually the case).

And yes, one can mod his SF with higher efficiency emitters, but - again - if I'm paying several hundred dollars for it I'm not expecting to have to do any sort of tinkering myself to bring it up to standard, at least not for a while.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

I am going to throw out a negative.

I am kind of bothered with the G2L. IMO they have put a play on words to boost up this model.

1. They state maximum output is 80lumens. Well sure thats the max, but it only lasts 10 minutes. After 10 minutes (according to Chevrofreaks graph) it drops to 60 something. Hrmf..

2. They state that it produces "useful" light for 12 hours. Well I guess I know the terminology so I expect a long tail (long tail = "useful"). It took 4.5 hours to hit 50%, and it is a flat drop to a very long tail after that. Yeah yeah, 4.5 hours of lets say 65 lumens isn't bad, but this is still misleading from their site.

3. It is known that a polymer body does not "wick" away heat like aluminum. The P60L module heats up a lot in that body. The drop in output seems to be from the thermal regulation. It hits a certain temp and drops output so the LED/body (?) isn't damaged.

We are lucky to have folks doing runtime tests on flashlights. They are my flashlight saviors. Here is a "Cheer" (wrong section) to Chevrofreak doing this stuff. I am sure the reviews about the G2L has turned some people off to purchasing.

I am not bashing Surefire. I believe that they rate their lights well. I just think the inflated stats on the G2L was bad call.:green:

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Since we don't know what bin SureFire uses, nor how often they update the bins they use I think it's a point pointless trying to judge this aspect of SureFires. The flashlight is what it is - regardless of ratings on paper.
SureFire "produces [in it's USA manufacturing facilities] almost 300 different kinds of parts, shipping to its assembly plants [all in the USA] between 125,000 and 200,000 complete stainless, aluminum and Inconel parts per week." This data is from an Nov-2006 article.
It's reasonable to assume this translates to many thousands of flashlights manufactured of which many are LED.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Gaffle said:

I am going to throw out a negative.

I am kind of bothered with the G2L. IMO they have put a play on words to boost up this model.

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I agree that SureFire marketing decision to use such terms as "max output" and "max runtime" are misleading because in most cases the output rating is not actually a 'max' or 'peak' possible output.

However, they are headline ratings and SureFire are expanding into a far wider market where detail is not helpful.

It has been consistently demonstrated that SureFire are conservative with their lumen output ratings so the exact lumen value is effectively unknown.

In the past SureFire have experimented with giving output/runtime charts in the user manual, and with giving a more detailed runtime/output rating.
Ratings like '100 lumens for the first 60 minutes followed by decreasing output for the next 4 hours'

In the case of the P60L perhaps something like "Peak output of 80 lumens throttled quickly back to 65 lumens as the LED module heats up for a runtime of 4.5 hours followed by decreasing output for the remaining 6+ hours"

Of course if you use it only momentarily you'll be getting the peak output for quite some time because the LED module won't heat up as fast.

We would like more accurate and representative data for the actual constant-on output/runtime characteristics of each flashlight. However, I don't think we can expect SureFire to provide this in marketing data at the same time they are expanding to an increasingly less technical market.

If CPF members decided to build a positive and constructive relationship with SureFire then perhaps SureFire would be more inclined to share this sort of product detail with CPF. I don't see this happening though.

Al

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Hello,

Yesterday evening I went to the fair in my community. As always I went into the "ghosthouse", where it is completely dark . I had my Fenix L2T RB80 and my surefire L2 with me. While tests indicate that both lights have exactly the same output - 100 lumens - the "wall of light" of the L2 remains (far) more impressive at short distances. Neither my L2T RB80, nor my L2D RB100 are as impressive, or as useful for entering a dark place. IMO the L2 remains to reign supreme for this application.
At longer distances, of course, the Fenixes beat the L2 with their better throw.

This does not mean that I prefer the L2 over the L2t/d. With a runtime of only 20 minutes on rechargeable cells (RCR123 3.0V), the L2 is not very useful for me in most cases. Even for more "serious" applications than entering a ghosthouse at a fair, 20 minutes is pretty limited. I know that runtime will be x2 with standard cells, but I will always use rechargeables because of the better regulation, always "fresh" cells and because it pleases me to do so .

Sorry for this ranting, I just wanted so say that the "wall of light" remains very impressive, even with newer lights/leds available. Conclusion: get L4 or L2 as well in your collection .

Kind regards,
Joris

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

xiaowenzu said:

One must remember that Surefire rates their lights as real lumens - light out the front, where as most Chinese lights are rated at the emitter, so the difference between the so called 'ultra-bright' leds and Surefires ones are relatively insignificant.

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You consider twice the output relatively insignificant? You need to realize some LED lights with Cree Q5's are putting out 180-200 REAL lumens. Has Surefire's LED lights put out anything over 100 lumens? It seems most of their new LED offerings are in the 65-80 lumen range at best. 65 lumens out the front, versus 180-200 lumens out the front? That's 3 times brighter.

For your information, the Q5's being driven in the 1-1.2A range are doing 256+ lumens at the emitter, so when you factor in loss from the reflector, lens, etc, you're in the 180-200 lumen range.

The Fenix P3D Q5 is around 180 lumens for example. That's REAL lumens, out the front, as you put it.

Let's try to keep the facts straight.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

WadeF,

Don't encourage him.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

All i know is that when i think i may be in a real bad situation, snowstorm, flooding, etc, i put my P2D on the shelf, and take my L1 and 6P, they just feel "tougher" to me. Multi level and uber brightness aren't always the most important things, working is.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

WadeF said:

You consider twice the output relatively insignificant? You need to realize some LED lights with Cree Q5's are putting out 180-200 REAL lumens. Has Surefire's LED lights put out anything over 100 lumens? It seems most of their new LED offerings are in the 65-80 lumen range at best. 65 lumens out the front, versus 180-200 lumens out the front? That's 3 times brighter.

For your information, the Q5's being driven in the 1-1.2A range are doing 256+ lumens at the emitter, so when you factor in loss from the reflector, lens, etc, you're in the 180-200 lumen range.

The Fenix P3D Q5 is around 180 lumens for example. That's REAL lumens, out the front, as you put it.

Let's try to keep the facts straight.

Click to expand...

My L5 was measured in an Integrating Sphere at a University. The result was 140 real lumens. Eventhough the package stated 100 lumens. That's why SureFire is AHEAD of anyone.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Outdoors Fanatic said:

My L5 was measured in an Integrating Sphere at a University. The result was 140 real lumens. Eventhough the package stated 100 lumens. That's why SureFire is AHEAD of anyone.

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I guess you won the lottery on your L5!

I don't have an IS but I do have a light meter and a home made light box, and I make RELATIVE comparisons of my lights.

My Fenix P3D with the Rebel 100 emitter is 60% brighter than one of my brightest KL4's. The only brighter SF LED light that I have is an "Error E2L" which is a 2xRCR123 direct driven Lux 5, which is about 90% brighter than my brightest KL4, but only 20% brighter than the Fenix P3D Rebel 100.

I love my SF lights, but in terms really bright LED lights, there are definitely less expensive alternatives than SF.

Re: Is Surefire just really smart to stay out of the "ultra bright" led battle?

Nake said:

WadeF,

Don't encourage him.

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I hate too, but as long as the moderators allow him to troll these forums and spout out incorrect information I feel someone needs to correct him so people aren't mislead.

Outdoors Fanatic said:

My L5 was measured in an Integrating Sphere at a University. The result was 140 real lumens. Eventhough the package stated 100 lumens. That's why SureFire is AHEAD of anyone.

Click to expand...

Are all integrating sphere's going to give the same result? Do you still have access to that Sphere? If so it would be interesting to try some other popular lights, like a Fenix P3D, etc, to establish more of a baseline. For all we know that Integrating Sphere may have measured a Fenix P3D Q5 at 230 lumens, or maybe only 160 lumens.