Follow-up to direct driving LEDs

Firecop

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Hello again, fellas...I've got another question for you.

I'm building a cheap multi-led M@g mod for my partner as a Christmas present (yeah, I'm a cheap bastage...) This one is using a 3D M@g host, 3x3AA>D adapters with alkalines, and 3 P4 Crees.

I'm planning on wiring them in series, as usual. My question is this:

In order to figure out what resistor (if any) I need, I will hook everything up, then put my multimeter to work. I'll touch the + lead of my mm to the M@g housing, then touch the - lead to the - of the bottom battery housing, right?

I want to drive them at about 700-800 ma. Since I'm driving the LEDs in series, should my mm be showing a reading of 700 ma? I'm unsure about the amperage when the emitters are in series.

Thanks again for all your help. Stay safe!
 

VidPro

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Hello again, fellas...I've got another question for you.

I'm building a cheap multi-led M@g mod for my partner as a Christmas present (yeah, I'm a cheap bastage...) This one is using a 3D M@g host, 3x3AA>D adapters with alkalines, and 3 P4 Crees.

I'm planning on wiring them in series, as usual. My question is this:

In order to figure out what resistor (if any) I need, I will hook everything up, then put my multimeter to work. I'll touch the + lead of my mm to the M@g housing, then touch the - lead to the - of the bottom battery housing, right?

I want to drive them at about 700-800 ma. Since I'm driving the LEDs in series, should my mm be showing a reading of 700 ma? I'm unsure about the amperage when the emitters are in series.

Thanks again for all your help. Stay safe!


that sounds correct.
9 batteries and 3 leds, all stuffed in series
the amperage across the whole curcuit would be the same amperage THROUGH any part of the curcuit. so if 700 ma is there, then its there there and there, as long as this is all one big Chain of connections, and not parelleled anywhere.


|---{]-{]-{]----{]-{]-{]-----{]-{]-{]-----|>-|>-|>-----[ .70 ]---|
|________________________________________________________|

if the leds were in parellel then not. if the AA adapters were in parellel , then not.
i assume you got series 3AA adapters, and series leds?

|-{]-{]-{]-----|>----|
|-{]-{]-{]-----|>----|
|-{]-{]-{]-----|>----|---[2.1]---|
|____________________________|

(that is supposed to be parellel :)

beware of lead resistance your adding when testing, better to use your 10amp shunt on the meter, and fat short meter connecting leads, so when you remove the resistance of the meter it doesnt change so much.
and dont forget that over TIME the leds Vf will change downward slightly.

3AA alkalines and 3W type led , might just sorta self regulate some because of battery weakness, so the trick should be easy to do. everything changes if he stuff in rechargables or lithium cells.
 
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Firecop

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Gunner: thanks..I've not seen that driver before. Unfortunately, he's not a geek like me/us and doesn't have the desire to mess with rechargables.

Vid, Lighthouse: thanks for the responses. Too bad I now have 2 conflicting viewpoints.:ohgeez:

It's a moot point at the moment, as I have just snapped the mounting base of one of my Crees, ruining it...

How bad would it be to throw in a non-P4 Cree with the two I already have?

Edit: I went ahead and picked up a couple of these drivers...thanks Gunner!
 
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VidPro

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How bad would it be to throw in a non-P4 Cree with the two I already have?

bad.
it would work fine with 3 seperated DRIVERS :) doing current control.
(hey didnt i say i dont like drivers :)

but if you want to do SERIES direct , they kinda gotta be from the same bin, batch and manufature, and burntime age . so they all act the same in unison.
it will work, and there will still be the same "current" flowing through each, but the voltage (and therfore total wattage) could differ.
you could test it, close enough sometimes is.
 
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Gunner12

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Well 9 AA batteries in series would be 13.5v and the driver can handle up to 18v so I think you should be fine.

Presuming 80% driver efficiency(probably better).
3.6v * .755 mA * 3 LEDs = 8.154 watts.
8.154 watts/0.80 about 10 watt.
10 watt/13.5v about 0.75 input

13.5 - (3.6v * 3) = 2.7v over the LED Vf so the driver should work.

So the driver should work but runtime would be short.

I would say buy another Cree, they aren't that expensive($5 shipped, are you sure your Cree is dead? as long at the LED itself has not been broken, there is a way to drive it.).
 
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VidPro

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if its using alkaline AA cells, the discharge charts on those at 1amp show they put out more like 1.2V . so that is only some 10.8v not the maximum 1.5x9. so the drivers are going to fall out fast.

although the total max that the Direct type drive could reach is important, so ya dont fry the leds, how the battery will be operating under the 1 amp load becomes a factor over the speced 1.5v for the cell itself.
i often use 1.2V per cell for alklines in my measurements because of how they operate under the load i hit them with.

here is the chart i use to guess how a alkie AA might work
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/AAComparison1A.gif

OH my, lol, that is sooo bad looking, poor alakines , no wonder why i use ni-mhys instead. well at least there is the fact that they will work better if they are rested between this 1amp load.
so a average joe usage of it wouldn't be THAT bad looking, and the self regulation (battery weakness) will keep it from overdriving in time more.
an alkaline rested will recover some to go again, and the chart uses Constant current, wheras the direct drive the current will taper WAY down as the voltage drops and self regulate the combo. as the current tapers from the weak battery voltage, so to will the draw on the battery. its matching magic.
note the chart is cutoff at .8v, long before then the self regulation of the DIRECT battery led combo would have lowered the total current and given the alkaline a bit of a break.

so unlike the chart , and more like the reality, it will drive at a bit over an amp, wane down a bit, push an amp for a while, and still be pushing a Half amp or so to each led for a very long time. 1/2 the total lumens about 80% of the percieved light to the human.

but ya know after looking at that chart, i can see why the tendancy to use drivers for alklines is so important.
AND i am looking for drivers myself, and that is why i was pointing at the possible voltages in the things, the voltage I want, they dont have either :-( its driving me up the wall, the curcuit needs to be able to handle the wide range , or its just wasting.
and george is out of maxflexes , but there is nflexes :) which would work here i think, if you toss out the nflex diode.

it sucks a lot when the curcuit has fallen out of its needed input voltage and still has huge voltage drops TOO, when your on tight voltage specs like this.

self regulation and less losses in curcuit stuff when its done correctally, make for an amasing light, at least as amasing as one with proper curcuit stuff. if you cant get to the voltage with the curcuits stuff, then its going to be sub par. the alkaline voltage is saggy, which can be used to an advantage with DD.

if Firecop pulls it all off right, there wont be short runtimes, there will be some declining output, with that curcuit you still have declining output, large losses, and falling out of regulations :-(

on the other hand if a curcuit was used that FULLY maintained the current to exact 1amp levels, the alaklines will just get pushed down so hard it will be worse, it wont slack off, and the alklines will just fold under the INCREASED current from them. that DX curcuit wont do that, because it will have fallen out long before then, but a perfect current control curcuit would.


and that is why i am having troubles finding the magic driver too.
 
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jbieszke

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vidpro,
I am in the near future, process of modding a 4cell cr123 light with the luxeon rebel trio (encor 07007) I havent received the donor light yet, but if its driving a 3w luxeon, I'm presuming its driven at 750ma. now my question is the rebel trio operates on 9v, would it be safe to drive the trio on the stock driver?
 

VidPro

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vidpro,
I am in the near future, process of modding a 4cell cr123 light with the luxeon rebel trio (encor 07007) I havent received the donor light yet, but if its driving a 3w luxeon, I'm presuming its driven at 750ma. now my question is the rebel trio operates on 9v, would it be safe to drive the trio on the stock driver?

i have no idea, i would have to have a spec sheet on the driver thingee, and make my usual bad guesses.

so it was driving a Single 3W luxeon, before, with high input voltages, probably some sort of buck curcuit or something?

there are some curcuits that do what i call DC-DC they remake the DC battery power out of the battery into power that conforms to the LED, then control the current. those styles can often drive more leds at the same current they did, if the led side was designed to allow for more output voltage.
other ones transduced the power over in such a way as to be only efficent for the single led voltage. like say 12v to about 4v, they are stuck and would not drive 3 leds in series.

it is more efficent to convert the power to suit ONE purpose and often also one battery voltage, so a well designed light could still be stuck at a specific input output setup.

if it was a clipping current curcuit, that just clips off the voltage to suit the current, then that to might work with more leds , and therfore more led voltage. but with high input voltages and low led voltages , they would have never clipped, it would be a total waste.

if it was a 3leds driver thing, then 3rebels would be very similar. if it was one led to 3 leds, you would need to know the output voltage the driver does.

(way outta my league)

so how about getting to what you really need a curcuit to do in the situation of your change. i donno.
you have ample input (battery) voltage with 4x123 cells 12+volt input, 10.8v on the low end.
thanks to the lithium cells they are a bit higher voltage, and will maintain voltage output better.
that should easily cover the led voltage at around 11v, you have more input voltage than output.
and the voltages arent crasy offset from eachother, so you could just clip off the extra voltage.

in this situation with series Lithium cells, you would WANT it to fall out of regulation, at the depletion of the cells
so you wont end up with a hard drive reverse voltage on a lithium cell, so the clipping current control would be the best item.

one that sucked all the lithium cells dead like a DC-DC , wouldnt be as good for lithium cells, unless it cooled out or cutoff.
so mabey a voltage clipping current curcuit, that had only mosfets in the path, that somehow works up to 14v.
as long as the curcuit doesnt waste or need a lot more voltage.

input voltage up to 14V or higher
output voltage up to 12v or higher
current 750ma
specs that said that?
 
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Firecop

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Yay, it works!

When I was trying to force the emitter into the optic holder, one of the wires I had soldered on was causing the optic to sit crooked. Being the brainless doofus that I am, I pushed hard on it, snapping the porcelain mount under the + side. After cleaning it up, I found that I had a small area (about the size of a comma) on which to solder my + wire. I made it happen, and it works!

Gunner, Vid; I decided to go with the dd through a resistor. It's simple, and my partner won't have to deal with any possible issues with the driver and alkalines. I did buy a couple of the drivers you mentioned, and may use them in an upcoming build.

BTW, I ordered 20 Fraen reflectors from Arrow. I'd like to compare their beams with the 8 degree optics I have in there now.

Thanks for everyone's help!
 
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