Those sneaky Chinese !!!

Just read this story linked on Slashdot about the latest Chinese electric powered submarine popping up inside the high security screen radius during USS Kitty Hawk carrier battle group exercises in sea between Japan and Taiwan. U.S. Navy is totally freaked out. Rightly so. Like every world super power, the reign is limited. Next up and coming fast is China....on all fronts.

Hi.

great story.

But if the submarine could go undetected, why did it surface, and let the Americans know that they could not detect it.

Did your read the one about the Chinese, firing a ground based missile and destroying one of their own obsolete satellites, giving them the ability to destroy and satellite in orbit.

regards

John.

TinderBox (UK) said:

But if the submarine could go undetected, why did it surface, and let the Americans know that they could not detect it.

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Because they wanted the Americans to know they couldn't detect it:nana:

Ummm, don't believe every damn rag you read out there, especially those on the internet. So many are over the top biased toward left or right wing propaganda, one must take the reporting with a grain of salt.

One I read recently warned of the conspiracy of asian nations against the USA by pushing soybean products as health food. How in fact, eating tofu, soybean oils, will cause homosexuality in males!!
Guess what....that's genuine news to certain groups of people, and you aren't going to persuade them they are wrong.


Nations with the ability to shoot down satellites is nothing new. Space has an unwritten international accord that is not within the bounds of airspace rights of any country. (No air in orbit, get it.)

If nations do stupidly get into a shooting match, don't you think it's all fair to shoot satellites down. Hell, it's not going to stop the USA, Russia, UK, France, why can't China?

The naval exercises are conducted in International Waters...something that is hotly contested. Any nation, especially if it's off their coastline, can be there.
And you honestly believe the US Navy wasn't aware of the presence of the Chinese sub? Come on! If a whale farts, the Navy knows what it ate that day.

If people in this country haven't already surmised by now that such official US State Department releases are methods to push policies by swaying public opinion, then people better pull themselves away from the boob tube, and wise up and stop being lemmings!

Whenever there is a push in defense spending, or new political agenda, it's always followed by reports like these to stir fear and polarize the population.

The strangest thing is that borrowing from China helps keep our navy afloat. Super secret chinese submarines are far less threatening than rising chinese interest rates. Sorry, couldn't resist.

tygger said:

The strangest thing is that borrowing from China helps keep our navy afloat. Super secret chinese submarines are far less threatening than rising chinese interest rates. Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Probably true.

The Chinese are smarter and more shrewd than given credit for - they just tend to keep quiet about it while going about things behind the scenes and then suddenly do something dramatic.

They are also smart enough to have weighed the cost of military action, and the likely scenario is that the great powers of the world will all do great damage to each other and nobody will come out the winner. The 'victor' will essentially have won a Pyrrhic victory.

Economic war on the other hand.....now that's pretty scary, much more plausible than outright armed conflict, and it WOULD do a phenomenal amount of damage - perhaps the same, if not more, than armed conflict..

Popping up in the middle of the fleet while it is on maneuver is no huge accomplishment. If the sub knew where we were going to be, laying in wait silently (like a maned underwater mine) is not all that difficult. Silently maneuvering (at any decent) speed however is more difficult.

I read somewhere that that sub has about a 3 knot speed while on battery (no clue if that is accurate) - I think I can walk a bit faster than that.

It proved a point that a show of strength is the best way to show your strength. Just talking about it is no good. The US government should be poop scared as their major weapons for communications (satellites) and fighting (aircraft carriers) are at risk. The new arms race is on. What will they come up with next?

This is an old story made new again on the link you posted. Oh well, it bears repeating. What kills me is that that Chinese sub probably sounds like a friggin broken washing machine and it still sneaked up on "us." LOL.

According to the story, the Chinese sub was a Song-class sub, which according to Wikipedia, is a diesel-electric and obsolete at that. It won't do much stalking of anyone's fleet. But... they still stalked American nukes. Aside from the fact that their stalking range is limited, I would rather have this as a wake-up call for military complacency. It could be argued that the U.S. Navy rules the sea, but it also doesn't take much for someone to sneak up on you with an electric sub and shove a 65 kg warhead up your tailpipe.

Having said that, I believe the Song-class sub's primary mode is coastal patrol. The Kitty Hawk's maneuvers were probably close enough to Chinese territorial waters that when the Chinese sub captain detected the other ships that he either unilaterally decided, or received orders to, extend his ship's mission to make a statement. It would have been a great adventure for those Chinese sailors.

I would be willing to bet that the United States has a few tricks up their sleeve as well. How surprised do you think the world was when the US dropped an atomic bomb on Japan? If you have something really great you keep it put away until you are ready to use it; you don't just whip it out and show it to everyone.

Those Americans can be sneaky too.

Diesel Electric boats can be very quiet--they just don't have much underwater time when compared with nuke boats... So having one pop up in the middle of an exercise only takes one knowledgeable, careful, and/or lucky captain.

Could this have been tied with the recent court cases that prohibit the US Navy from using active sonar (which can, apparently, disrupt and possibly kill, sea life when used)? Don't know, but if avoiding use of powerful active sonar was a reason for this (possible) non-detection--it can be a good way of developing "stealth by lawsuit" technologies.

Another technology advance is stealth by bureaucracy. One report I had read said that the Syria "Nuclear Processing" facility was so secret in Syria, that the Syrian military (in general) did not even know about site to even protect it.

If you want to look at other new technologies out there, how about that sneaky "American/Israelite" cartel:

Report: Israel 'blinded' Syrian radar

After Israeli missile strike on Syria confirmed by both sides, the question remains – how did Israel's non-stealth jets infiltrate Syrian airspace undetected? US aerospace experts tell Aviation Week magazine that Israel used new US-developed technology that lets users invade and manipulate enemy communication networks
...snip...
...Israel must have used "a technology like the US-developed 'Suter' airborne network attack system".

The cutting-edge technology allows users to invade enemy communication networks, to "see what enemy sensors see and even take over as systems administrator so sensors can be manipulated into positions so that approaching aircraft can't be seen", experts said.

In effect, the technology infiltrates and tricks enemy sensors by "directing data streams into them that can include false targets and misleading messages algorithms that allow a number of activities including control," the article explains.
...snip...
According to the article, a Kuwaiti newspaper recently reported that "Russian experts are studying why the two state-of-the art Russian-built radar systems in Syria did not detect the Israeli jets entering Syrian territory. Iran reportedly has asked the same question, since it is buying the same systems and might have paid for the Syrian acquisitions."

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-Bill

mousehunter said:

Popping up in the middle of the fleet while it is on maneuver is no huge accomplishment. If the sub knew where we were going to be, laying in wait silently (like a maned underwater mine) is not all that difficult. Silently maneuvering (at any decent) speed however is more difficult.

I read somewhere that that sub has about a 3 knot speed while on battery (no clue if that is accurate) - I think I can walk a bit faster than that.

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two points based upon my "bubblehead" experience in the USN (albeit 30+ yrs ago):

1. a KEY concept in the intelligence community is MISINFORMATION aka LIES, plus NEVER let them know that you know.

2. "decent speed" is not typically used when on station, especially for "boomer's" aka FBM's (fleet ballistic missile) submarines. SLOW = QUIET, and quiet is good, hence slow is good.

'nuff said.

I don't know much about stealth subs but…Could it be that the electric sub was right below the vessel and outside the reach of the sonar umbrella?

I really don't know what's controlling Chinas technology advances, the government or a private firm

The satellite they sent up was…well, on the books a 「meteorological geosynchronous sat」 but sites on line spoke of 「an orbital reconnaissance model」 [note the dramatic contrast between the two?! oo:] Sending a satellite up was hard enough….China then decided to modify an ICBM and blow it out of the sky….making one deadly projectile into many smaller pieces, more than enough to create a hazard and wreak havoc on the US based computers in the space debris tracking center [supposedly this is where the rumor of a satellite collision came out from, no sources on that though]
Here's some info on that: http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/index.php/2007/01/18/china-creates-space-debris-intentionally/

Here's what the current view of satellite/debris looks like

Here's what the projected distribution looks like
[pic not werking] use link http://ssdl-www.aero.kyushu-u.ac.jp/debris/FragCldEvo.gif

What's more of China's untold secrets, since the day Korea announced the grand opening of its nuclear research facility China's 「officials」 have continually denied the existence of new sub bases…well, thanks to Google earth we've found one: http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2006/02/chinas_secret_u.html
Whatever Chinas intentions may be…its definitely not on the grounds of civil order…and who knows, this may actually be the forward page of 「the beginning of the end of US naval dominance」

If China pushes for press release, they're going to get plenty of attention…but if they deny the incident as accidental, I'm not going to believe it. I'm pretty sure even from an underwater view the displacement of a carrier cannot be mistaken for say a fishing boat….:shakehead:

EDIT: some areas of post removed due to lack of citations

You know this happened over a year ago, right? Somebody is running out of news to report.

considering what happen then may be classified and only declassified recently, its old news to them and new news to whoever thats reading it..

yeah I agree

LOL! they should have painted an "Owned!" sign on the side of the sub.

I bet some heads rolled on that one

turkdc said:

I would be willing to bet that the United States has a few tricks up their sleeve as well. How surprised do you think the world was when the US dropped an atomic bomb on Japan? If you have something really great you keep it put away until you are ready to use it; you don't just whip it out and show it to everyone.

Those Americans can be sneaky too.

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the Manhatten project came about with sufficient government funding....I doubt we can do the same again being stuck with war debt...and whats worse, who buys the war bonds we sell? China

Illum_the_nation said:

...Whatever China's intentions may be…its definitely not on the grounds of civil order...

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Wait a minute, you mean China is going to start a war in the Mid East too?

daveman said:

Wait a minute, you mean China is going to start a war in the Mid East too?

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they would probably win.....LMAO!!!

...the Chinese used lead based paint on the inside of the sub and all the seamen are now at the hospital for lead poisoning....