Lights used for self defense?

While searching for a new light I have noticed that companies (like surefire) state what the light is good for. Some say general use, camping, or self defense.
In general incandescent lights from surefire state for self defense while leds are listed as general use or camping.

So my questions are:
1. Are incandescent bulbs better for self defense than leds?
2. If I am buying a led light that has a greater output in lumens than an incandescent light cant I use that for self defense?
3. What small light would you recommend for self defense?

Thanks for the input

1. Not Really...LED's are more shock resistant, but incan's (xenon) operate better at a wider temperature range...
2. Yes...a 4-D Mag w/ LED comes to mind...
3. A) For pocket carry, a Sure-Fire 6-P w/ P-61 headlamp and a striker bezel...just the right size so too much doesn't stick out the ends of your hand, with a striker bezel for pumelling somebody (in self defense)...it's also about the size and strength of a roll of quarters...
B)I n the car/truck...a 4-D Mag...while they do make bigger one's, a 4 or 5-D are about as big as I would want to try and manage in a scuffle!

Also, the 60+ Lumens recommended for a "Defensive Light" applies to a perp with "night adapted vision"

Hope this helps!!!!

angelofwar said:

1. Not Really...LED's are more shock resistant, but incan's (xenon) operate better at a wider temperature range...

Click to expand...

what does this mean, operate better at a wider temperature range?

Personaly i believe that, there is no small light that can be used for self defense... all it can do it buy you a few seconds by blinding the opponent so you can leg it, or at most be used as a fistfull. Lights are not weapons.
Striker bezels are just there to make the light look kewl and maybe protect the lens, but that's about it. I mean think about it, how much damage can a medium sharp half an inch edge do (unless you stab him right in the face with it) ?
Sure some companies will bring out "Instructor videos" where their light is seen being used as a weapon, but then again you can do that easier with a kubaton or any kind of small rod like instrument.
The only time you can use a light as a weapon, is if it's a 3C-D and up maglight with which you can easily clobber someone over the head with.

As for what angelofwar said about operating temperatures, i think he ment that a LED can work at a wider temperature range than any filament bulb (ie -5C up to 40C) or something along those lines, because they do not need to heat up a wire to produce light.

[email protected] said:

So my questions are:
1. Are incandescent bulbs better for self defense than leds?
2. If I am buying a led light that has a greater output in lumens than an incandescent light cant I use that for self defense?
3. What small light would you recommend for self defense?

Thanks for the input

Click to expand...

I think many here will advice you not to put too much trust into using any light for self defense. A bright flashlight shined in the eyes of an opponent might buy you a few seconds to get away. A large and heavy light might be used as a club, but first and foremost, you need training in both armed and unarmed self defense to use any of it effectively.
Back to your other questions:
1: In my own experience, a powerful incandescent is more blinding than an LED light.
2: Again from personal experience (just testing, not involved in any fighting!), it's about power AND focus. My Surefire L4 should pump out around 100 lumens, but is all flood. My Surefire L1 delivers around 65, but in a tight beam. I find the L1 much more effective for getting someones attention.
3: Smarta$$ answer would be: none! But as it has already been suggested, a Surefire E2D (defender) or 6PD come to mind. Also some of the offerings by Fenix and others can be "upgraded" with a T.I.D (Tactical Impact Device) and work as an improvised kubotan / attitude adjuster.
But again. don't rely on light alone for self defense, not even with spiked/crenelated bezels or fancy names!

[email protected] said:

So my questions are:
1. Are incandescent bulbs better for self defense than leds?
2. If I am buying a led light that has a greater output in lumens than an incandescent light cant I use that for self defense?
3. What small light would you recommend for self defense?

Thanks for the input

Click to expand...

1 - No. Some folks who routinely carry a firearm prefer incas to LEDs because when you shine an LED light on objects, they tend to appear flat. (Truth is, QuickBeam does a better job of explaining it than I can. Go to flashlightreviews.com and read the review for the Fenix P3D, for a better understanding of this).

An advantage of LEDs in a S.D. encounter is that there's no bulb to blow. (One less thing that can go wrong). LED's are more impact resistant too.... There's a reason why Surefire's M-series of inca lights have shock-isolation technology built into the bezels. On LED lights, that technology isn't needed.

2 - Yes.

3 - For use in conjunction with a handgun, a dedicated weapon light is best. Mounted just in front of the trigger guard, like a Surefire X300. But finding a holster that will fit, with the light attached, can be problematic.

Another option would be a Surefire L4. Puts out a wall of light, comfortably fits in the front pockets of a pair of dress pants, lightweight. An L4 in the weak hand compliments a handgun well.

Another S.D option is using the light itself to defend yourself. And I mean more than just blinding an attacker with its output. I mean using the light as a hammerfist enhancer. (Bezel protruding from the bottom of your fist). A long enough light, like a SF L2,can be used as a kubaton. A three-cell light, like a SF 9P, makes for a nice yawara stick..... If you plan to use your light as a kubaton or yawara stick, be sure to get proper training first.

Secur1 said:

Personaly i believe that, there is no small light that can be used for self defense... all it can do it buy you a few seconds by blinding the opponent so you can leg it, or at most be used as a fistfull. Lights are not weapons.
Striker bezels are just there to make the light look kewl and maybe protect the lens, but that's about it. I mean think about it, how much damage can a medium sharp half an inch edge do (unless you stab him right in the face with it) ?

Click to expand...

I think the point is that your light may be all that you happen to have with you, and if that were the case i WOULD rather have semi pointy things sticking out of it then none at all. Im in the camp that thinks strike bezels will probably have some effect.

Actually i read somewhere that LED's actually render colours closer to what you would see in sunlight then incandescent. Really not a biggie with me. If youre using it as a Self defense shine in your eyes type thing, I would say leds are more durable, loger lasting, and i would say hurt the eyes more.

Althogh i think a strike bezel would be no match for a Maglite 6D.....

Crenshaw

Ps: Yay im finally a flashaholic...!

_

Burgess said:

_

Click to expand...

Agreed.... Let's hope this doesn't degrade into another "Are flashlights effective weapons?" thread.

Monocrom said:

Agreed.... Let's hope this doesn't degrade into another "Are flashlights effective weapons?" thread.

Click to expand...

haha, i thought it was already one when it started.

Crenshaw

Crenshaw said:

haha, i thought it was already one when it started.

Crenshaw

Click to expand...

Well.... S.D. with a flashlight could also mean using it in conjuction with a firearm. The Topic-Starter wasn't specific about which type of S.D. role the flashlight would play.

A more passive aspect would be using a light in S.D. to prevent a potentially violent encounter. For example, lighting up the dark alley you're thinking of cutting through in order to get to your car. (Just one example).

fair point, we should stick to lights that are defensive purely because they are bright, for the sake of this discussion, in which case, Incan and Led would perform similarly, which means im carrying a LED with a foward clicky, becasue its likley to be smaller then incan..

Crenshaw

Good point, indeed.


If the (potential) "bad guy" is awaiting an easy "victim" to approach,

he may very well have second thoughts if/when he sees a BRIGHT flashlight beam approaching.


Cuz' it's difficult to tell what ELSE the victim may have at hand.


:devil:
_

just like what is most popularly known as a kubotan, one key aspect of so-called "strike" bezels (sure they can be used in striking - try the clavicle, as one simple non-lethal example) is in joint-locking and subduing an opponent (e.g., yonkajo is much more effective with a hard object in the hand - even a small flashlight, than just using the side of one's knuckle to effect pressure on the radial nerve by pressing it against the radius bone near the inside of the wrist - though a small diameter light, AAA-sized is better unless one has large hands). this, of course, requires training.

the flashlight+the handgun seems to be a far more effective use of the light.

an unwieldy large, heavy flashlight (think 4+ D-cell here) would also NOT be a good choice for striking, unless you were sneaking up behind someone to attempt to cave their skull in. it does have more of an intimidation factor though. unless one is a veritable gorilla in stength, whipping about a 4-6 D-cell light will generally lack the speed of a lighter weapon (try a sinawalli with a 4-6 D-cell light - not really effective unless one were tremendously strong and even then there still is more inertia in the heavier weapon).



below is something i posted back in July in another Thread. maybe there will be one small point that is useful to at least one person interested in this area.



[my apologies, haven't read all of the prev. replies, so don't know if all of this was covered.]


A general reply to ANY who are interested in this subject. As always, this is only my opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of this Board and its Participants. YMMV (your mileage may vary).



i have some training in Philipino MA/"martial arts" (sticks, knife, empty-hand) which forms the basis of my following advice.


first off, without previous and ongoing training, use of a weapon (or empty-hands) more often than not will produce less than desirable results. training, for many and varied situations, to the point of "reflex" (non-thinking) action is what works best in most situations. the japanese call this "mu shin no shin" (loosely translated, "mind of no mind" = non-thinking, reflexive action due to thousands of repetitions/hundreds-or-thousands of hours of training). without proper training, things may *NOT* turn out "Hollywood", i.e., going well for the "good guy" - you'll be disarmed yourself and possibly beaten with your own weapon. Even with proper training, things may NOT turn out quite as expected!!!


if you're going to sneak up behind someone and hit them over the head, then i'd say go with the 6D Mag and cave their skull in (just hope that they don't move before you get that behemoth of flashlight to impact its intended target). however, be willing to accept the moral and legal consequences of this action though. one will have to give an account - both in time and in eternity!

for other possible situations, unless you're a veritable gorilla, the 6D weighs way too much (52oz or so with batts, if i recall correctly) to be easily swung, stopped, change direction, or perform multiple strikes should the first miss, be parried, or blocked (unless the blocking is done with an arm = broken arm, in which case, as Bill Paxton says in "Alien 2", "Game over, man!").

you're not defending against slow moving, plate-mail armored medieval european knights here. calm, know-how, training, and speed will win out in the situations you might(???) be envisioning.


Remember you have a blindingly bright flashlight - perhaps that should be the first response, i.e., blind 'em & run.


however, if additional response is justified by a particular situation:

go for something lighter that can be whipped about quickly. THINK! THINK! THINK! about a LEO's baton.

the first blow does not need to kill (the Samurai's ideal of "to kill with one cut" is NOT necessarily applicable here), simply disarm the knife hand, for instance ("defang the serpent and it is helpless" aka "gunting" aka destruction-technique ), or incapacitate a hand or arm (or knee/shin/leg - a hand/arm can't normally parry/block that low, for that matter --- years ago, when on SP duty, this was a favorite target of mine, i.e, hand [if a knife was being wielded] or knee/shin - ended things quickly without too much damage to the attacker).

then, if you are able, you can run away from the altercation and contact the proper law enforcement authorities, before you're reported yourself for assault and battery. it's amazing how invisible "witnesses" can pop up in a false police report.

better to just give 'em your money if that's what they're after. CONTINUED attempted personal injury, however, should be defended against, IMO. "one and done" - be a bigger man and don't retailiate (even if you are still able to retailiate and not unconscious), IMO. give 'em one freebie, IMO, then go and fill out a police report against them. Let the law enforcement professionals, and the legal system, do their job in your defense

Don't respond violently to violence. If the threat/attack has ended and additional assault is not threatened, retaliation at that point is NOT self-defense, or using justified force, it, in and of itself, also becomes an act of violence. that IS how the LAW WILL view it!!!

Please remember, there's a difference between "using force" and "violence". THINK! THINK! THINK! on that difference, so that any response, might be a measured response - appropriate for that particular situation. Also, know that the law gives LEO's much more latitude in these situations (it's their job; i have some law enforcement in the family) than it gives the average "Joe Q. Citizen". "Self-Defense" is a very fine line that you don't want to inadvertently cross in "heat of the moment".

something light enough to whip about quickly, yet heavy enough to hurt (more than "sting") is what you're looking for, IMO. what this might be will vary for each individual based upon their level of strength, skill, and training.


Another wiser than i has given, what IMO is, the BEST advice:

"Avoid rather than check.
"Check rather than harm.
"Harm rather than maim.
"Maim rather than kill.
"For every life is precious,
neither can any be replaced."

- Master Po (,the blind "Sifu"/"Shifu", to young Kwai Chang Kane [aka "grasshopper"] in the original "Kung Fu" TV series)


Addendum: Regarding the above Post, do as Bruce Lee used to say, "absorb what is useful; discard the rest".

Whenever I think of using a tactical flashlight as a weapon to injure someone I can only think it's possible if you're Jason Bourne... and in that case you could use a bic pen... lol...

I feel a strike bezel is about the same as using anything else, which is only a good defencse if you know how to attack better than the other guy can defend...

I must respectfully disagree. Even the humble mini-mag can cause a GREAT DEAL of damage. Hold it like a knife and strike your lef with the butt end. Ouch. That is a lot of power distributed over a small area, or a force multiplier. I have seen people beaten to a bloody mash from a small AA flashlight and fists, nothing more.

Smack the bad guy in the face and you still get the same effect. This is a vicious style of attack known as "punyo strikes" min the Filipino martial arts.

With the Russian style it is even more brutal...a strike bezel is not necessary. I bounced some VERY tough places with an old D2 and felt fine about it.

If you are willing to accept minor damage, you have the power to inflict major damage (depending on what the bad guy is armed with)

A quick flash to the eyes followed by a kick in the balls and a knee to the face and a light to the back of the head when he bends over....grab and apply a Guillotine choke...game over. It is bloody, dirty and up-close, but that is why it is crime for them to attack you in the first place.

Now having said that I grew up ROUGH and have been in martial arts as long as I can remember. I worked rough urban units and am no stranger to getting cracked in the melon.

You CAN defend yourself IF you choose to engage the attacker....sometimes it may be better for you to run...that is your choice.

Dont try this at home unless you have a qualified Instructor, etc. I accept no responsibility, etc., etc. and you may get sued, etc.

to Irishsentry --


I want you along when i go out taking photographs at night ! :thumbsup:


I'll gladly buy you a SureFire M6 (with your choice of bezel). :devil:


And, of course, you are welcome to bring any other hardware you'd prefer.


:twothumbs


Oh, and Welcome to CandlePowerForums !

:welcome:
_
_

isnt everyone forgetting the best self defense flashlight, that is manufactured solely for self defense... TIGERLIGHT, they have both incan and led lights, small and large, and are terribly bright

Burgess said:

to Irishsentry --

I want you along when i go out taking photographs at night ! :thumbsup:

I'll gladly buy you a SureFire M6 (with your choice of bezel). :devil:

And, of course, you are welcome to bring any other hardware you'd prefer.


:twothumbs

Oh, and Welcome to CandlePowerForums !

:welcome:
_
_

Click to expand...

Thanks...lol I am not trying to "blow my own horn" I am just saying that the average person can do more than they think in most cases.

Sometimes a large flashlight (although I love them) can be a liability if your attacker is trained (doubtful in USA). You can get "stick stripped" where the attacker gets the light away from you the gentleman up above that is into FMA knows what I mean.

....that is why I like a smaller light with a lanyard if I do suspect trouble. If a D cell maglite doesnt stop the perp by sight, chances are you are in for a tumble.

I will gladly hire out for an M6 (I have done bodyguard work before and did graduate from ESI)....just let me know when and where.....lol

I'd highly recommend a SF E2D for self-preservation / EDC. It's pricey yes, but the added benefit of a double-sided bezel has saved my butt -- being able to stab once and hit a second attacker on the downswing (especially the hand) is priceless. I'd also agree w/ Irishsentry -- having a big light like an M6 is kinda dangerous in the wrong hands - use it like a knife and you are hosed (IMHO).

Now second -- Icans always seem to me to scare away "beasties" much more than LEDs... Maybe it's just me, but when I hit the 6PL on a warfrat, it just looks at me stupidly (allowing a nice shot from a 22!), but the 6P incan flips it out and makes it run. Same with my dog at home. Sorry, never had tiger experience or anything...

--TI