EV1 Question for Darell

Darell,

I just saw a report on the evening news about the discontinuation of the EV1, and that because all of the EV1's produced were leased, all owners were going to have to give them back. Is that true? Can you pay an extra fee to keep it? Are you thinking of alternatives, such as the hydrogen fueled car which will come out in a couple of years?

John

Ooooo....look out! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Actually, Darell has covered this in numerous threads. The main EV thread is here. Enjoy!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dan...

Thanks Dan /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John - Funny, I was just watching some online AVI's of those reports when I saw this message. I'm thrilled that you saw the segment, and felt compelled to comment! First thing I should warn you about, is that I'm in daily contact with all those folks you just saw at that press conference. So be afraid... I don't live in LA, so I missed that one. You may see my photogenic face at the end of this month however. Lots of fireworks planned.

But, to your questions... there have been several threads lately on this very subject. I don't mind answering your specific q's right here though.

It is true that no EV1s were ever owned. And that was by design so that what is happening right now would be possible. GM wants them off the road and forgotten now that GM has earned their ZEV credits with them. There is NO way to own one - and in fact they're offering an incentive to turn them in early. Ever heard of an early least termination BENEFIT? The only way to keep them is to break your lease, steal the thing and destroy your credit.

Look close at my sig line, and you'll see that I currently have TWO battery EVs. I own the Rav4EV, so nobody can ever take it away. The Rav4 was the ONLY production EV ever sold in the US. There were about 40 of us brave souls who purchased them (a couple hundred more who leased them). After the three year warranty is up, we're on our own. I mean REALLY on our own.

As for an H2 car in a couple of years... If there are 0.1% as many H2 fuel stations as there are gas stations today, and if there exists an H2 vehicle that is cost-competitive with my Rav4EV and that has comperable range and refill time. And if H2 fuel costs less than $5 gallon-of-gas-equivalent - then I'll eat my shorts. And eat them publicly. No, no. You aren't gonna see H2 cars on the retail level in a couple of years, if ever. The Toyota H2 cars that are on the road today (all two of them) are being leased for $10k/month. Yes, per month. (One of them is parked just a couple of miles from where I sit.) And there are six places in CA to fuel them, the last I checked. And their range is less than 60 miles. Nowhere will you find the cost of production of the vehicles or of the fueling stations, or of the fuel. Trade secrets....

I'm a bit sour on H2 cars because today's H2 research is being funded and conducted at the expense of battery research. BEVs are dead in the water. And that's how the federal government and the auto industry would like it to remain. There has been NO "alternative fuel vehicle" supported by the auto industry or the federal government that does not use fossil fuels. H2 vehicles are no exception, nor are what we're calling "hybrids" of course.

Please read this: http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=465&subcookie=1

And this: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2003rule/1202wkshp/brooks.pdf

Can we start a seperate forum for EV's?

How about a car forum. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif Maybe even cars with special headlights, tail lights, fog lights, etc. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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bigcozy said:
Can we start a seperate forum for EV's?

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Hey! Is that just a thinly veiled "pleasant" way of asking me to shut my pie hole? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Man, we've got so many forums now, that it is impossible to keep up with 'em all! I don't think we'll be seeing any specific-for-non-flashlight forums created here. What's the point? (I mean besides the benefit of locking me into my own little forum cell?)

It was meant in jest and with all respect. I gotta learn how to put those smiley faces on my posts!!

Yeah...it hurts.

I don't think H2 will *ever* be practical or efficient for cars. Maybe as a battery replacement for your flashlight but not your car.

Dareell,

Reading those articles it sure seems within the realm of possibility that EV's could be getting close. I'd kill for the Golf if I could drive still as I could get to work and back twice on a charge. Keep plugging away. It will happen. As somebody willing to put their money where there mouth is I have to applaud you. I had my turn tilting at windmills with the city of LA and Lopez Canyon landfill. Conventional wisdom was that there was no way we could win. It took 7 years and a lot of work, frustration, and set backs. But we won and part of our victory was making recycling a reality in LA.

Ultimately it is the private sector, underfunded inventor who will get something out there. Let's hope that it doesn't get nuked. Every little bit helps. Keep the faith.

Only problem is that to sell an assembled car (Kit cars are a different story) to the American public it has to go through crash testing. Crash testing is expensive. VERY expensive. Expensive enough that said inventor will spend more crashing the cars then he did designing them!

How far do you commute to work? Less than 25 miles? If so you could EASILY go to work and back 2 times on a charge.

If you're willing to take 3 seconds every night and plug in your car you can work as far as 50 miles away.

Get your employer to install a charger and you can work about 100 miles away!

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Saaby said:
Get your employer to install a charger and you can work about 100 miles away!

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Get AC/propulsion to build the car, and you can plug it into ANY outlet. Have them use today's battery technology, and you'll go 250 miles on each charge.

EVs ARE here. They just aren't made. The ones that have been made are fantastic - and they're made by the folks who are the most resistant! Just image what they'd be like if the builder actually wanted us to drive them and like them.

Ryan is right, sadly. The whole crash-testing situation is the nail in the coffin for the little guy. The only way I see of this happening is to force the big auto to do what's right. They aren't doing it willingly - just like they resisted unleaded gasoline, catalytic converters... and EVERY pollution-reducing technology we've ever implemented. GM was proactive with EV1 at one time - now they're hating themselves for it. Sad, sad, sad.

Starting from scratch would not be practical because of that. Not to mention costly. I'm thinking more along the lines of the Golf that was in the article. Taking an already proven crash worthy vehicle and modifying it. Almost zero (in comparison) development costs at least for the base vehicle.

My work is only about 12 miles from me. And my company would put in the charger I have little doubt, if there was a need. However I quit driving 2 years ago and unless there is some breakthrough new technology it is unlikely that I will drive again. Even mass transit is not really viable for me. I don't mind the half hour walk to the bus. But with the hour to hour and half transit time and a bus change I would rather stay at work and do something worthwhile or hang out here on the forum.

[ QUOTE ]
Mutiny Sfears said:
I'm thinking more along the lines of the Golf that was in the article. Taking an already proven crash worthy vehicle and modifying it. Almost zero (in comparison) development costs at least for the base vehicle.

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This is the very reason that the Rav4EV was such an affordable solution. Not only is it a proven glider, but it was actually designed from the beginning to go either way - gas or electric. Pretty cost-effective way of handling the situation - as I'd expect from Toyota. Too bad they didn't do a think about aerodynamics, and didn't stick with the EV program. The Rav4 program was abandoned exactly one day after CARB decided that the ZEV mandate would get pushed back a THIRD time.

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But with the hour to hour and half transit time and a bus change I would rather stay at work and do something worthwhile or hang out here on the forum.

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I must be missing something here. Do you live at work? NO... it is 12 miles away. But you don't drive or take mass transit. I'm guessing walking is a bit far. Bicycle? Nothing beats a bicycle!

It would seem that I damn near live at work as I'm there generally from 7:30 to around 6:30. Even riding a bike would be risky with my almost complete lack of peripheral vision (5 degrees worth). My wife drives me and takes the kids to school and then turns around and goes in the complete opposite direction to get to her work and then the reverse to pick us up.

You would think CARB and California would be right on top of that. Afterall they passed the lighter fluid restrictions and made it so you can't get decent contact cement anymore with the low VOC requirements. Even the city of LA was forced to implement the gas recovery systems at Lopez even though they dragged it on until they were in danger of being shutdown until they were in compliance. CARB did let them go without fines or shutting them down but only because they did at least have a system proposed on paper. Had we not forced the issue I think they would have put it off until it was.

Keep plugging away with them Darell. It's a start at least.

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Mutiny Sfears said:
My wife drives me and takes the kids to school and then turns around and goes in the complete opposite direction to get to her work and then the reverse to pick us up.

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Ah. I get it now. That's gotta be tough on everybody.

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You would think CARB and California would be right on top of that.

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Yeah, you'd think, huh? And they would be on top of if CARB weren't being sued by the auto industry AND the federal government on a seemingly continuous basis. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif Who do you want to please? The motoring, breathing public, or the folks who can squash you like a bug?

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Keep plugging away with them Darell. It's a start at least.

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Oh, I am, I am. Thanks for the support. The CARB board meets on March 27 here in Sacramento to decide the fate of the ZEV mandate. It is do or die time right now. There will be more EVs in one place at this meeting than in any other place ever, as far as I can tell. We've petitioned the Sac Police Dept to rope off a couple of blocks so we can park right in front of the state building where the board meeting will be held. WE have folks driving up from Los Angeles and San Diego. Should be some fun.

is you EV fully electric, or a gas/electric hybrid?

i remember reading a car and driver article about full electric cars with the possibility of both high performance and remarkable range.

antd that they would be nearly silent, with near zero emissions. THAT would be awesome. i hate loud/polluting cars.

relating to energy: i keep reading about advances in solar/wind power in discover mag. i would love to see solar panels/windmills standard on new houses...as well as all the other energy efficient systems. heck, they arent even all that expensive, and appear to be very reliable. (read this months discover for more info--oops could be last month).

we do need to keep developing these resources.


Bob

oh, i found the article. it is in the april 2003 discover, and it is titled "unplugged"

great article.

Bob

Bob -

There is no such thing as an EV that uses gas. There are some gasoline vehicles that incorporate varrying amounts of electric assist, and they're called hybrids today. But they REQUIRE gasoline to run, and are certainly not ZEVs nor EVs. My cars are both pure battery electric. Today's hybrids are incorrectly called "hybrid electric vehicles." It would be more appropriate to call them "hybrid gasoline vehicles." But again, an
EV is nothing but electricity.

You want performance? My EV1 will go about 120 miles per charge, and can accelerate 0-60mph in about seven seconds. That is faster than most cars on the road. It is faster, in fact, than my 250hp Volvo T5 could do it. My EV1 has neck-snapping performance. There is no down-shift, no power delay, just SCOOT! And the only sound you hear is a soft hum and the squeal of the tires. I can smoke the tires 'till Tuesday if the electronic torque limiter is turned off (called traction control in newer vehicles).

High-performance EVs are actually quite simple to make as compared to ICEs. And there is no efficiency penalty in creating a high-performance electric motor. A 100hp EV will have the same energy consumption as a 200hp EV if they're driven the same way.

The EV driving experience is superior to that of any other vehicle I've ever driven. No oil changes, no gas station visits and no tuneups are just icing on the cake.

Boy, sad to say but it looks like the hybrids will be our only viable alternative for many years to come. But as the hybrids improve, wouldn't some of the technological changes spill over the EVs as well?

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geepondy said:
Boy, sad to say but it looks like the hybrids will be our only viable alternative for many years to come. But as the hybrids improve, wouldn't some of the technological changes spill over the EVs as well?

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Quite true. Currently, hybrids depend on technology from EV development (as does FCV research). You'll notice that the two mfg's offering hybrids (Honda and Toyota) had some of the best-accepted EVs to date (the Honda EV+ and the Toyota Rav4EV). We don't even count GM for obvious reasons (the light bulb hasn't gone on yet that hybrids are where the market is heading).... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

What we're trying to push for is "plug-in" hybrids. They would have substantial pure EV range (60 miles or so). So on a daily basis - around town the commuting, you could plug it in and drive clean. When it became time to drive to grandma's house, the vehicle becomes a gasoline hybrid and operates just like today's hybrids. You drive to the end of your EV range, and the ICE kicks in. THAT would be fantastic. You would then have the choice to plug your car into the electrical outlet OR into the gas nozzle, depending on your needs. We have prototype full-size Suburbans that can go 60 miles on battery power, and when the ICE kicks in, the still get 30mpg - and have higher torque than their pure ICE couterparts. Who could argue with that?

The big problem with hybrids is that they have to schlep around a heavy, leaky ICE as well as all those heavy batteries. A plug-in hybrid is about the perfect stepping-stone to pure EV though. I will get people used to clean transportation without the "fear" of running out of electricity.