Why aren't the Surefire lights way brighter?

Perhaps it seems like a silly question, but I thought someone might have some thoughts:

With the new LEDs that are out, and with all of the lights boasting 100, 150, even 200+ lumens from normal battery sources, why hasn't surefire released some blazingly bright versions of their LED line-up?

I do realize that they rate differently than others, but I find it hard to believe that a Q5 that gives 180 lumens when driven in a Fenix wouldn't at least break 100 lumens out the front in a 6PL...

Is it runtime? Doesn't seem to make sense, as surefire had/has no problem releasing inc. bulbs and lights that run only 1 hour, or even 20 to 30 minutes on two or 3! :huh: 123's...

Perhaps they do so much reliability testing that they are slower to come out with stuff? Just guessing here... any thoughts?

Surefire makes their lights for specific uses. They aren't trying to make the brightest LED light possible. If their research shows that 80-100 lumens is ideal for the situations their light is designed for, then that's what it will put out. Also running the LED at a lower current will improve run time, and possibly improve the LED's life, etc.

While Surefire could produce a light that output around 200 lumens with a Cree Q5, etc, they may not be comfortable doing so. They may not have enough testing to show that pushing a LED that hard is a reliable thing to do.

I'm sure when Surefire is ready they will make higher output LED modules or lights available if they feel there is a demand for it from their market.

There's a whole lot more to flashlights than sheer brightness.

Makes sense... I guess I understand... however, there seems to be a side to surefire that caters to the insane flashaholics among us... a sort of zany or experimental side... just take their Beast or Titan for instance... definately extreme lights and a departure from their typical fare.

I guess I'm just a little surprised that they don't have a few more smaller torches that are brighter than their typical ~100 lumens or less.

I do agree with what you both said though... makes sense.

WadeF... do you think that many of the Q5 Cree's are overdriven (Fenix turbo modes, etc.)? Just wondering... I've read a lot about that here but never found anything too definitive...

from Size 15s thread (I had dinner with PK tonight), we can infer that PK makes more prototypes than we think, and perhaps its the making of these additional efforts that perfected their current releases.

2007 iLLUMIN4TI0N t0oLS said:

No wonder people are so attached to their Surefires. It's just the way Paul engineered it

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then again, how would you define "way brighter"
first off, Surefire takes its lumen counts seriously, and secondly "brighter" isn't what they focused on in the R&D dept

Still they could make just one now, lets say a version of the 6p so we dont have to go aftermarket.

I suspect it's coming soon - only because they changed out the nitrolon heads for aluminum on the G2L, and because they will have to make some (small at least) increases in output with the new L2 L4 U2 etc.

Even if it is not necessary, marketing will dictate it.

They do make some ultra-powerful lights such as the m6. It would be great if they make a multi-led version. And among led lights they've always made some of the most powerful in terms of wattage, i.e. the KL4/5/6 using the Luxeon V back when those were the brightest leds available. So they're probably as lumen-crazed as any of us.

hassiah said:

With the new LEDs that are out, and with all of the lights boasting 100, 150, even 200+ lumens from normal battery sources, why hasn't surefire released some blazingly bright versions of their LED line-up?

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It's funny that Surefire and Maglite seem to be in the same boat. That's business. The main thing is you can buy a surefire or a maglite and put in an aftermarket drop in module that will give you the tip of the iceberg in lumens and runtimes. If you examine that drop-in market closely you'll notice it's a rapidly moving target for a big slug of a company to keep up with. As others have mentioned, Surefire builds some lights for specific uses and peak lumens aren't always the biggest concern. I like the trend towards runtimes.

Don't forget surefire sells to civilian, law enforcement, and militarizes around the world. They're not going to keep changing products every couple months simply because something bright comes out and their product is still serving their customers well.

Also they need replacement parts for years not months.

hassiah said:

WadeF... do you think that many of the Q5 Cree's are overdriven (Fenix turbo modes, etc.)? Just wondering... I've read a lot about that here but never found anything too definitive...

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They don't seem to be. I think they are running them within spec. Most don't push more than 1A, and most have good heat sinking. If it was an issue you'd think we'd see a lot more people posting about their Cree's burning up.

Maybe Surefire has some TOP SECRET project going on where they are working with someone to get an even more powerful LED in a line of lights and come out with some 400-500 lumen single LED modles.

I'm hoping Surefire comes out with some high power LED heads for my E2e.

The market of high power LED P60 style drop-ins seems to be growing. You'd think Surefire would want to offer something of their own to compete. I don't see why Surefire couldn't put out a high quality LED P60 dropin that would be just as bright as everyone else's but maybe when a superior beam. You'd think something like that would be popular.

We'll probably see something sooner or later.

I myself waiting for Surefire to release much brighter version that using Cree LED, or multi LED replacement module/replacement head to use with my SF collection, E1e, E2e, M2, M3, M6, etc...

Many LED spec sheets report 500 hour plus life when driven at or near nominal rating (new tech might be good to 2000 hours approx w/ better phosphors/process). I personally cannot wait for the rebel stars w/3 Emitters coupled w/ presently unreleased optics to beat the hell out of current offerings ( Imagine all our cree/ seouls looking as impressive as Luxeon I tech)
I think Surefire doesn't want to replace its drop-ins in another couple of years Due to Warranty claims. (sorry for the long roundabout way of answering your question):wave:

I think the current lumen war has already gone over the useful range, it's more of a "because we can", "mine's brighter than yours" now. Really, how many of us need a 200+ lumen light, heck even 100+?. For my lights I rarely use modes with over 100 lumen, even when I use them it's for show off mostly.

WadeF said:

Surefire makes their lights for specific uses. They aren't trying to make the brightest LED light possible. If their research shows that 80-100 lumens is ideal for the situations their light is designed for, then that's what it will put out. Also running the LED at a lower current will improve run time, and possibly improve the LED's life, etc.

While Surefire could produce a light that output around 200 lumens with a Cree Q5, etc, they may not be comfortable doing so. They may not have enough testing to show that pushing a LED that hard is a reliable thing to do.

I'm sure when Surefire is ready they will make higher output LED modules or lights available if they feel there is a demand for it from their market.

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Or.......could it be that Surefire was caught flat footed by the competition?

If memory serves, until about three years ago, folks on this board were raving about Surefire's "blinding" tactical lights-(60 lumens).
Back then, light-out-the-front was one of the main things that set Surefire apart.
Along came the modders and the Chinese manufacturers who proved that Surefire was not the only game in town by a long shot.

An example: I just received notice from Surefire of a 3 battery light with a whopping 80 lumens. If memory serves, it isn't terribly impressive on length of max output.

To say Surefire could increase the lumen output of its lights to be competitive if it wanted to is a bit disingenuous. The proof is in the performance.

If your argument that Surefire has determined 80-100 lumens is "ideal" is accurate then Surefire is creating its own problems. Why do you think so many folks have followed flocked to Fenix, other makers, and modders who offer high lumen upgrades? Maybe the customers know what they want?

Why aren't the SureFire lights way brighter?

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My first response is 'then what?'
I don't think the manufacturers known to CPF that members are comparing to SureFire are even remotely important enough for SureFire to 'need to compete' against. Niche companies like Fenix may be the current vogue for CPF members at the moment but in the real world?!
Streamlight, Pelican, Inova, Laser Devices, PentagonLight etc are brands that may be known to some people in the markets SureFire is interested in.

Secondly, members are right - SureFire isn't about to rush things, or change things every few months. SureFire's scale of production and customers dictate that SureFire take a longer term game plan based on production quantities that few other players in the 'high output flashlight sector' could dream of.

Thirdly, never presume that CPF is a market for SureFire or that SureFire make a product aimed specifically at CPF members. We are Flashaholics and we are a Niche. Even though a large proportion of our discussions are concentrated on SureFire; we're almost as unwelcoming to SureFire as it's possible to be. The number/percentage of Flashaholics who are prepared to put their money where their mouths are when it comes to 'special' SureFires is not really any greater than that found on other forums discussing cool stuff. Edit: Some may say it is actually lower compared to fan groups in Asia.

Fourthly, SureFire in 2006/7 has expanded into wider markets where the output of current products is already far higher than other brand products. So with the moving forward of technology SureFire have concentrated on improving runtime rather than increasing output. Models such as the E1L and E2L, L1, K2, P60L (and associated hosting flashlights) etc are for users who value runtime over output.

Fifthly, If anybody had asked me what I predicted SureFire was going to do next (and I note that nobody has) - I'm going to tell you what I think anyway - I'd say that SureFire will return their attention away from longer runtime. R&D has had good time to get to grips with advances in LEDs.

Lastly, I'm sure that expectations following SHOT Show will be high, just like they are each year - with members wanting SureFire to release the proto-types they share at the show as soon as possible. In previous years it has taken many months for SureFire to release new products so from the perspective of expectation management I strongly suggest that no expectation of release is made or hoped for. I've found this enables me to better enjoy being a flashaholic until such time as I get my hands on the new products...

Al

I don't know the lumens of my 4 favorite flashlights, just that they are bright enough. I have a 3XAAA Brinkman 3W LED that throws a great beam and you really don't want to look into it. Plastic body.

A Brookstone 3XAAA Aluminum body 1W with a lens that also throws a long but reasonably wide, very even spot and you don't want to look into it.

3XAA MagLED. Again, a decent beam and painfull when you look into it.

A Brookstone headlamp, 3XAAA, that is more than enough light for anything I might ever need a headlight for and bright enough to hurt if you look straight at it.

If I need more throw or brightness than that, Optronics! 6 volt Gel-Cell 2 million candle power spot lights. No they won't go in my pocket, but they will throw a beam well over a quarter mile and pick up channel markers over a mile.

I have a bunch of other cheap lights, primarily hurricane supplies. But I truly understand the modding and always looking for the "Next Better Thing." Because I do it too. But I'm old, retired and limited income, so I can't go and get the latest Pelican, Surefire, Fenix or others. But I wish i could.

And I put Pelican first, mostly because my primary hobby these days is photography and I have a Pelican case for my cameras. If their lights are light their boxes, they are truly indestructible.

JMNSHO & YMMV

Just last night I gave my friend a new Romisen RC-F4 as I know he appreciates flashlights. At the Dealextreme price, I had ordered several. Turns out John had a Surefire E2E (I didn't know about) that he purchased this past fall from a co-worker.

He was unaware - like I was till about two months ago - of the advances in LED technology of the last year or two. So out to the backyard to compare...

I had already tried the Romisen in comparison to my trusty Surefire 9P, and knew.

Of course the $15 Romisen made the E2 look weak. John couldn't believe it. He and I met when we both worked at a GE Lamp plant producing photolamps 30 years ago, and his job was as an engineer running a photometry lab onsite. So there was a white wall exam, too. John decided the SF must need a fresh set of CR123's, so there was a second round of comparison, and a second Chinese victory.

John is a very intelligent guy, an executive in the semiconductor packaging business, and a real marketing target for a company like Surefire. They left him shaking his head in amazement in this comparison.

Perhaps the $100 plus E2L would be a match, and the E2 is a nice looking hunk of metal - but companies like Fenix are able to come pretty close to the mechanical and metal finishing of the Surefire products, and they are in mass production, too.

Reading the specs for the E2L, looks like they chose to regulate for long life (14 hrs) at 45 lumens. The E2E is rated at 60, and I'm sure its runtime is far less.

I see no reason for SF to spend any further effort on incandescent products.

If SF strategically chose to drop the output from 60 to 45 lumens in changing from an incandescent to a LED, it seems a rather strange choice, especially since they have typically emphasized the product's ability to blind people in their marketing, not the economy of their battery life (especially since SF lights typically use the expensive CR123's).

I wish them luck, but agree completely that the question posed is not one they want to continue to answer defensively. My recommendation would be to work like hell with Cree to come up with several new modules that will be reliable, offering brightness options up to the current technical limits, and offering superior reliability.

JCup said:

I see no reason for SF to spend any further effort on incandescent products.

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They have not done so for quite a few years.

JCup said:

If SF strategically chose to drop the output from 60 to 45 lumens in changing from an incandescent to a LED, it seems a rather strange choice, especially since they have typically emphasized the product's ability to blind people in their marketing, not the economy of their battery life (especially since SF lights typically use the expensive CR123's)

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When SureFire 'went' LED - they've split the E2e into the L4 (high output route) and the E2L (long runtime route).
They're even introduced two models that allow you to easily switch between high output and long runtime (the L1 and L2).

SureFire gets feedback demanding longer runtime. This is especially so from the outdoors and hunting markets.

I feel that the direction SureFire intends to move forward in is better judged after seeing what they decide to show at SHOT Show.

Al

Two questions re Surefire:

1. Are all SF LED torches only use CR123A batts or do they make ones that use AA/AAA batts.

2. I could be wrong here but looks like LED torches from the other competetions seem to offer longer run time.

Albinoni said:

Two questions re Surefire:

1. Are all SF LED torches only use CR123A batts or do they make ones that use AA/AAA batts.

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Yes, the vast majority use SF123a type batteries. Exceptions being the Titan which uses a single CR2, and their rechargeable models. There are no AA/AAA SureFires, and I think it is highly unlikely that they will make any.

Regards,
Tempest