wow a car i can even afford

check this out the ladys will be all over me in this ride
http://www.dailytech.com/Worlds+Cheapest+Car+Greeted+by+Environmentalist+Protests/article10301.htm

Take that, Ferrari :nana:

Regards,
Tempest

50 mpg? Where do I sign up? :huh:

So now families who formerly had to rely on scooters for basic transportation can now afford a car. Their standard of living goes up, the car isn't a gas-guzzler.... but the wacko fringe side of the enviornmental movement is foaming like rabid dogs. Why? Maybe because they care more about trees than human beings.

They're not whacko, believe me. I've already seen some of the harm caused by the rapidly increasing numbers of cars there, in one particular small town. The difference after 2 years was major. Narrow ancient lanes. You walk in the road, because everyone else does and the one side of the road is a covered sewer and the other has some low trees and there are goats and dogs and things there. Bicycles and bicycle rikshas, you see them coming or they call out, and everyone fits, no problem. Motorbikes, no problem. Sometimes a tractor pulling a trailer, or a water tanker. Now, cars and SUV, faster speed, more dust, sometimes driven by arrogant people from the city who honk, and honk, and even injure the cows who wander along the road, or sit in the road.
Also, they have serious congestion problems in the cities - already. Like you can't imagine until you've been there. And that's with most of the traffic being motorbikes and autos (three-wheeler scooter-based taxis).
So, while this is...natural, it was bound to happen,...but it is a concern. It's going to be a big problem the municipalities, and for others.

Traffic in most of asia is already a nightmare, but it's about to get worse.

Not sure if I'd evenr want to be in one of those, imagine getting creamed by a ford excursion, the driver probably will have to be scooped up by spatula.

cat said:

They're not whacko, believe me....

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Their sheer level of hatred and anger causes me to disagree with you. While you do raise some valid points, progress eventually comes to all parts of the world. America had nothing more than dirt roads when the first cars came out. Prior to 1903, no one had gone cross country in a car.

Is it moral to deny poorer people a better standard of living? Instead of bringing up the issues you did, they just want this car to be taxed out of the hands of poor people. I see something very wrong in that.

PhotonWrangler said:

50 mpg? Where do I sign up? :huh:

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That will never come to America, It is too fuel efficient and idiot BUSH and his OIL buddies will lose money. but I WANT ONE!:wave:

lol the thing i like is 2500 bucks lol.im not a guy who likes fancy stuff so id also like it being simple.but id not take it on any hills

Monocrom said:

Is it moral to deny poorer people a better standard of living? Instead of bringing up the issues you did, they just want this car to be taxed out of the hands of poor people. I see something very wrong in that.

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Car ownership isn't the only way to give people a better standard of living. This issue here is giving people convenient, inexpensive transportation. A comprehensive system of trolleys, rapid transit, and heavy rail will do so for far less total money than every poor person spending $2500 to buy one of these cars, and without the attendent road carnage we see here in the US. IMHO, any developing country should not emulate the huge mistake we made in the US of abandoning public transit in favor of the auto. This is especially true in countries with very high population density where increased auto ownership will result in congestion, smog, etc. quite quickly. Also, for short trips of less than a few miles, mechanized transit is more a want than a need. We would do well even here in the US to walk or bike such distances.

jtr1962 said:

Car ownership isn't the only way to give people a better standard of living. This issue here is giving people convenient, inexpensive transportation. A comprehensive system of trolleys, rapid transit, and heavy rail will do so for far less total money than every poor person spending $2500 to buy one of these cars, and without the attendent road carnage we see here in the US. IMHO, any developing country should not emulate the huge mistake we made in the US of abandoning public transit in favor of the auto. This is especially true in countries with very high population density where increased auto ownership will result in congestion, smog, etc. quite quickly. Also, for short trips of less than a few miles, mechanized transit is more a want than a need. We would do well even here in the US to walk or bike such distances.

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Honestly, I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. I lived in Flushing for about two decades. Took public transportation most of my Life. Convenient is hardly the best way to describe public transportation where you and I live. Standing in the rain at a bus stop, which is sometimes nothing more than a bus schedule on a pole, is far from fun. But during rush hour, it's not too bad. I had the "fun" of working 3rd Shift (Midnight - 8am). Miss a bus, might as well grab a Snickers bar.... cause you'll be waiting for awhile.

Still, I used to feel sorry for the poor guys who worked 2nd shift. Miss a subway train after 11:30pm, and you can count on waiting about 45 minutes for the next one.

Even those who work the morning shift encounter problems. Mostly overcrowding in the subway cars. Wouldn't be so much of a problem if some folks would shower! Nothing like being so close to a total stranger that under all other circumstances, that level of "intimacy" would only be reserved for a wife or loving girlfriend.

But the real fun begins when things go wrong. Nearly every time it rains, the subway station at 179th street in Jamaica gets flooded! And it's not the only one. But it sure is great when the token booth clerks have no clue about alternate transportation by bus. And the announcements at the last minute of, "Everyone off. This train is out of service."

Then there's sharing the trains with deranged Homeless folks, lunatics, and I think I already mentioned people who smell. You call that a better standard of living??

I had to put up with that $#^% for about a year and a half at my last job assignment. Towards the end, I started losing it a bit! I got into a shouting match with some piece of $#^% lunatic that sat there and started singing.... off key.... at the top of his lungs.... with his eyes closed! You should have seen him jump in fear when I shouted at him to shut the Hell up! I didn't even care that he was much bigger and taller than me. I didn't even care if I'd have to get physical with him. People get on the subway in NYC, and they act like Low-life garbage!

Now, I work at a job that I can drive to. I spend half an hour on the highway and side roads, instead of an hour and a half dealing with public transportation. I get to decide if I want to listen to music, instead of some @-hole who feels likes blasting his music all over the subway car.... While everyone just sits there, pretending it's okay. Well, everyone except me. (Funny, the look on their faces is priceless when someone decides not to put up with their $#^%). I decide who sits next to me, if I want to car pool. No need to worry if some lunatic, Homeless or otherwise, decides to get into the same subway car with me. No need for me to wait at all before starting to head off to work. And if it rains, who cares! With a car, I'm responsible for getting to work on time. If my car breaks down, I'm responsible.... Instead of some guy who didn't repair a Bus or Subway train properly because he couldn't possibly care less if I and others get to work on time.

Don't get me wrong, public transportation is indeed the Life-blood of NYC. But it used to be a lot better, years ago. Service cuts and mismanagement have really taken their toll. Been my experience that folks use public transportation because they need to, not because they want to. Who would honestly want to sit in a subway car that hasn't been cleaned, stinks of urine, has a homeless guy who's camped out at one end, a guy singing at the top of his lungs at the other end, and (if you're lucky) getting an announcement over the P.A. system that sounds as clear as Charlie Brown's teacher.... Who's the masochist that's HardCore enough to enjoy that?!

Euro guys here correct me if I'm wrong, but even if you have a car there most people don't use it to go to work, people take transit instead. Same for japan, and china. So basically people are living like they have no car most of the time, and they are fine with it. My truck sits in driveway all week, I only use it on weekends.

Monocrom said:

Don't get me wrong, public transportation is indeed the Life-blood of NYC. But it used to be a lot better, years ago. Service cuts and mismanagement have really taken their toll. Been my experience that folks use public transportation because they need to, not because they want to. Who would honestly want to sit in a subway car that hasn't been cleaned, stinks of urine, has a homeless guy who's camped out at one end, a guy singing at the top of his lungs at the other end, and (if you're lucky) getting an announcement over the P.A. system that sounds as clear as Charlie Brown's teacher.... Who's the masochist that's HardCore enough to enjoy that?!

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I bold-faced the part that I think is relevant. Why is public transit not as good as it could be? Precisely because it is a neglected step-child in a country that covets automobiles. Look in places like Europe or Japan where lots of people don't own cars. You don't have most of the problems you described. I'll admit taking public transit has its own problems. I rode it going to high school and college in the late 1970s/early 1980s when the system was at its worst. It's much improved now but still needs work. After all, parts of the system are over 100 years old. They need to be modernized. It's nothing that couldn't be fixed if 10% of the money people spent on their cars was poured into the system instead. As for the overcrowding, thank Robert Moses, whose god was the automobile, for that. He didn't see much need for public transit, and saw cities as places you simply pass though while driving to suburbia. We should have built more subways in the outer boroughs years ago. Had we done so, the capacity problems we have now wouldn't exist. The Queens Boulevard line and Flushing line are at capacity. They have been ever since I used them regularly. It's a chicken or egg thing. People are happy to spend thousands on an automobile, thousands more a year to insure and fuel it, yet refuse to put a dime into public transit, then complain how lousy it is.

BTW, I just move to the next car, or wait for the next train, if I encounter some unpleasant folks. I only had a violent encounter once in all my travels. Some idiot (not a homeless person, either) was complaining that I was "staring at him". Honestly, I may have been looking in his direction, but not at him. I hadn't slept the night before so I was completely out of it. After about two stops of this, and after I mentioned multiple times that I was just tired and kind of out of it, he started saying I'd better get off the train. Well, next stop as the doors were closing I butt-kicked him right out the door. By the time he got up off the platform the doors were closed and the train was moving. Sure, you sometimes encounter low-life garbage like this on the trains, but you act like it happens every single time you ride. Most of my rides have been pleasant, or at least uneventful. The subways are probably best if you just avoid rush hours and late nights. Off-peak during the day the trains move. Sometimes you'll even get a seat.

As for driving to work, you can keep it. For starters it's way too expensive. Nothing is more nauseating than sitting in traffic breathing fumes. And for many trips car actually takes longer than train, except during the late night hours you mentioned where waiting times are just too long. Not to mention that statistically you're way more likely to die in an auto accident than riding the subway.

Bringing us back to my original point, a public transit system has a very low price of entry, namely the fare, which makes it accessible to nearly everyone. To use the car in question, the price of entry is $2500 plus a driver's license, considerably higher. Which do you think would actually be more useful to more people? Even here in the states, lots of poorer people can't afford a car, yet the government sees no need to improve or even build public transit. Nothing brings up the standard of living faster than making decent transportation affordable to all, not just to those who might have $2500 (a lot of money in these countries). We used to understand this here. It seems we don't any more. Now all politicians do is build a few roads and they consider an area as having "transportation".

I suspect that as our trade deficit increases and we de-industrialize even further these cars (or others like them) will be embraced wholeheartedly by the masses in the same manner as the ugly little Russian cars of the Cold War era were...and for the exact same reasons. The Subject line says it all.

jtr1962 said:

I bold-faced the part that I think is relevant. Why is public transit not as good as it could be? Precisely because it is a neglected step-child in a country that covets automobiles. Look in places like Europe or Japan where lots of people don't own cars. You don't have most of the problems you described. I'll admit taking public transit has its own problems. I rode it going to high school and college in the late 1970s/early 1980s when the system was at its worst. It's much improved now but still needs work. After all, parts of the system are over 100 years old. They need to be modernized. It's nothing that couldn't be fixed if 10% of the money people spent on their cars was poured into the system instead. As for the overcrowding, thank Robert Moses, whose god was the automobile, for that. He didn't see much need for public transit, and saw cities as places you simply pass though while driving to suburbia. We should have built more subways in the outer boroughs years ago. Had we done so, the capacity problems we have now wouldn't exist. The Queens Boulevard line and Flushing line are at capacity. They have been ever since I used them regularly. It's a chicken or egg thing. People are happy to spend thousands on an automobile, thousands more a year to insure and fuel it, yet refuse to put a dime into public transit, then complain how lousy it is.

BTW, I just move to the next car, or wait for the next train, if I encounter some unpleasant folks. I only had a violent encounter once in all my travels. Some idiot (not a homeless person, either) was complaining that I was "staring at him". Honestly, I may have been looking in his direction, but not at him. I hadn't slept the night before so I was completely out of it. After about two stops of this, and after I mentioned multiple times that I was just tired and kind of out of it, he started saying I'd better get off the train. Well, next stop as the doors were closing I butt-kicked him right out the door. By the time he got up off the platform the doors were closed and the train was moving. Sure, you sometimes encounter low-life garbage like this on the trains, but you act like it happens every single time you ride. Most of my rides have been pleasant, or at least uneventful. The subways are probably best if you just avoid rush hours and late nights. Off-peak during the day the trains move. Sometimes you'll even get a seat.

As for driving to work, you can keep it. For starters it's way too expensive. Nothing is more nauseating than sitting in traffic breathing fumes. And for many trips car actually takes longer than train, except during the late night hours you mentioned where waiting times are just too long. Not to mention that statistically you're way more likely to die in an auto accident than riding the subway.

Bringing us back to my original point, a public transit system has a very low price of entry, namely the fare, which makes it accessible to nearly everyone. To use the car in question, the price of entry is $2500 plus a driver's license, considerably higher. Which do you think would actually be more useful to more people? Even here in the states, lots of poorer people can't afford a car, yet the government sees no need to improve or even build public transit. Nothing brings up the standard of living faster than making decent transportation affordable to all, not just to those who might have $2500 (a lot of money in these countries). We used to understand this here. It seems we don't any more. Now all politicians do is build a few roads and they consider an area as having "transportation".

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You are forgetting that it is not the Federal government that controls public transportation in NYC or other cities. You highlighted an important part of my post, but you also seemed to gloss over it a bit. The main problem (at least in NYC) is the greedy folks in charge of the MTA. Every year it's the same B.S. speech.... "We need more money, we'll also have to cut back on services." A few years ago, the Head of the MTA was complaining that fares would have to be raised to cover budget issues. Later on, it turned out that there was a surplus! But by then it was too late. Fares went up. Why this crook wasn't tossed into jail for blatant fraud, I have no idea. That's what I meant by mismanagement. Why pour even 10% or one penny into a public transportation system who's Head guy in charge is a crook? He'll likely pocket the money. I blame state political leaders who were too lazy to do what was needed, with regards to public transportation improvements.

Moving to the next car is fine. But at a certain point in time, you start to realize that you shouldn't have to move to the next car. You shouldn't have to put up with the type of B.S. I described in my other post.... Then you start to get angry at the fact that both the city and the MTA just don't give a $#^% about commuters. When the subway system in NYC first opened, folks treated it the same way they do nowadays when it comes to going out to a Broadway show. They got dressed up, they looked their best, etc. But not anymore! Now they treat a subway car as either their personal Living Room, or as a public toilet. Honestly, it got to the point right at the end when I encountered the human garbage nearly every single time I'd get on the F train. It did get that bad. I had to take the trains to work in Manhattan. No way to avoid that.

Yes, driving to work does cost more in the long run. But the advantages are too good to pass up. No need to wait in the rain before starting your commute, no need to directly deal with the Homeless, or with junkies, or lunatics, or folks who refuse to shower, or just plain @-holes. No need to put up with sharing space with any of them. You can use your car on the weekends, you can use your car anytime you want; to go anywhere you want. Honestly, I've calmed down a lot; now that I no longer have to deal with any of the disadvantages of public transportation. The smell of fumes on the roads is like roses, compared to the smell of the Homeless folks sleeping and urinating in the trains. I'd rather take my chances with my car, then possibly use my self-defense skills against some lunatic in the subway.... especially against the ones who like to push people onto the tracks with a train approaching.

Despite the higher cost of a car, I think many folks would prefer having their own personal space instead of sharing it with a bunch of strangers. Poorer families in America often make do with what is available. Whether it is using current forms of public transportation in their area, or saving up for a well-used car that the Bread-Winner can use for transportation to and from work. Yes, I know that some folks can't even afford a used $500 car. But it is up to their elected state representatives to fix the situation, if more public transportation is needed..... Let's just hope that the Head of the MTA doesn't have any "clones" working in public transportation in other cities.

But man, do they have to make that car so ugly? Just my opinion, but that car is hideous! I think it's that way with most economy cars. I'd be more likely to drive an economy car if they'd just make it look less like, well, an economy car. How about just a smaller version of a larger car just scaled down a bit?

Big_Ed said:

But man, do they have to make that car so ugly? Just my opinion, but that car is hideous! I think it's that way with most economy cars. I'd be more likely to drive an economy car if they'd just make it look less like, well, an economy car. How about just a smaller version of a larger car just scaled down a bit?

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Hmm.... Nissan did that with their current model Sentra. Looks like a scaled-down Maxima.

Monocrom said:

You highlighted an important part of my post, but you also seemed to gloss over it a bit. The main problem (at least in NYC) is the greedy folks in charge of the MTA. Every year it's the same B.S. speech.... "We need more money, we'll also have to cut back on services." A few years ago, the Head of the MTA was complaining that fares would have to be raised to cover budget issues. Later on, it turned out that there was a surplus! But by then it was too late. Fares went up. Why this crook wasn't tossed into jail for blatant fraud, I have no idea. That's what I meant by mismanagement. Why pour even 10% or one penny into a public transportation system who's Head guy in charge is a crook? He'll likely pocket the money. I blame state political leaders who were too lazy to do what was needed, with regards to public transportation improvements.

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Yes, there is a major problem of accountability. But our political process is a lot to blame for that, along with influence of labor unions, etc. I don't know why the Second Avenue subway should cost as much as the estimates, for example. I suspect there's a lot of waste and fraud there. Much of the problem is that we essentially have a one-party system in this city. If we were to have a viable two or more party system, the leaders would actually have to earn their jobs. Still, money poured into highways is no more immune to these "cost overruns" than mass transit. At least mass transit is something I use, so I'd rather see the money go there, even if half of it is graft.

When the subway system in NYC first opened, folks treated it the same way they do nowadays when it comes to going out to a Broadway show. They got dressed up, they looked their best, etc. But not anymore! Now they treat a subway car as either their personal Living Room, or as a public toilet.

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This is more a societal problem than a subway problem. Car drivers regular clean their cars out and dump the garbage right on our property. People use more than just the subways as toilets. Lack of respect, manners, decorum is widespread. It's just that you don't notice it much until you're a captive audience on a subway train watching someone wipe down their underarms with tissues and alcohol (yes, I really saw that). I'd guess that you had similar experiences.

Honestly, I've calmed down a lot; now that I no longer have to deal with any of the disadvantages of public transportation. The smell of fumes on the roads is like roses, compared to the smell of the Homeless folks sleeping and urinating in the trains. I'd rather take my chances with my car, then possibly use my self-defense skills against some lunatic in the subway.... especially against the ones who like to push people onto the tracks with a train approaching.

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Look, if you're happier driving that's fine. I know I wouldn't be, and that's assuming I could even afford a car, which I can't. I just don't want to be bothered jumping through the hoops of getting a license, insurance, and actually having to pilot the thing to get where I'm going. I'll trade (possibly) longer travel time, or occasional unpleasant characters, for the ability to pay $2 a ride and let them do the driving while I sleep, read, or just watch out the front window (when I get an R32 anyway).

Yes, I know that some folks can't even afford a used $500 car. But it is up to their elected state representatives to fix the situation, if more public transportation is needed..... Let's just hope that the Head of the MTA doesn't have any "clones" working in public transportation in other cities.

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Yes, the situation does need fixing. Putting aside any preferences, we just can't build enough roads to get rid of congestion, but public transit will solve that problem easily. We need much more of it. The auto hasn't turned out to be the panacea people thought it would be. Thankfully, I'm starting to see a change in people's mindset. As more of the general public demands public transit, even if only as an alternative, more will get built and there will be more accountability. I also think a good model is to build a system with public funds, then let private operators bid for a franchise to run it. Since you will have companies competing for riders, there will be an incentive to run a good system for the least amount of money. With public union employees, there is really no incentive to deliver any level of service.

To: jtr1962 ~

You've made some excellent points in your last post that I mostly agree with.

Two things though....

I've actually seen much worse than folks using tissues or alcohol to wipe their underarms with. Nothing compared to what a former co-worker witnessed though.... Guy got slashed across the face with a large folding knife, attacker ran out the subway car, and the victim was so pi$$ed that he chased after him.

Also, the City doesn't make it that difficult to get everything needed inorder to legally drive. I got my car, insurance, registration, etc. before I even had a computer. Still, I understand that you're not interested. In this city, you can live a lifetime without ever knowing how to drive or buying a car. It's true what they say though, once you have a car; living without it feels as though someone cut off one of your limbs.

That car is a bad idea. Indian traffic is already bad as it is. Subtract thousands of scooters, add thousands of cars, and it'll become downright frightening.