AA fast chargers - Delta V?

tr098a

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I'm looking for an AA fast charger, i've read about -delta V, but can anyone explain what +delta V and 0delta V are?
And why a charger would have all 3 features?
Specifically i am looking at these two chargers
http://www.vapextech.com.hk/ProdManagerA/ChinaIn/prodmain.asp?productid=505
VTE4000
-dV cut-off function.

http://www.vapextech.com.hk/ProdManagerA/ChinaIn/prodmain.asp?productid=504
VTE2000
+V, -V, 0V cut-off function

I presume having all 3 provides redundancy and is therefore better?

Thanks
 

turbodog

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Delta V is the change in voltage over time. Negative delta v is when the cell's voltage actually drops when it's fully charged. 0 delta v is when it simply stops climbing in voltage when charged.

The end of charge (eoc) voltage behavior is different for different cells. nicad cells have a negative v at full charge. nimh have either a flat plateau or a very small negative v at full charge.

Some chargers assume you're using a specific type of cell and only monitor 0/- v. Some nicer chargers will use the dat gained from the cell during charge to determine the exact cell type (chemistry --> nicd/nimh/li-ion/etc) and then adjust accordingly. I would call this final type a +/-/0 v type.

For simple, safe nimh aa cells just get whatever's convenient. The cells are cheap and don't post much of a safety issue if overcharged.

Li-ion or lithium polymer will burn down your house if improperly charged so you want a GOOD charger with them. And never leave them unattended.
 

SilverFox

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Hello Tr098a,

You may find this article informative.

Tom

Edit: It appears this article is no longer available. See post 51 for a link that is available.
 
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tr098a

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Hello Tr098a,

You may find this article informative.

Tom
Very interesting article, but how come if -ΔV actually overcharges nimh cells, why do nearly all of the chargers i've looked at on the web use it? Because I'm looking at the cheap ones? :p

turbodog said:
For simple, safe nimh aa cells just get whatever's convenient. The cells are cheap and don't post much of a safety issue if overcharged.

Yeh, it's for nimh cells, so i'll probably get the 30min one (it has a fan).
 

Mr Happy

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Very interesting article, but how come if -ΔV actually overcharges nimh cells, why do nearly all of the chargers i've looked at on the web use it? Because I'm looking at the cheap ones?

It's for practical reasons. If you want to charge NiMH cells quickly, you have to stuff a lot of current into them for a short time, but then stop when the cells are nearly charged (before you cook them). The difficulty is telling when to stop. One way is to look at the voltage, but the voltage is not the same for every cell, so the charger doesn't know what voltage to look for. Another way is to measure the temperature of the cell, but it is very difficult to reliably measure the internal temperature of a cell in a consumer charger, especially one that handles different sizes of cell in the same cradle.

So what it comes down to is the best of the worst options, and -dV is what is left. The alternative is a slow timed charge, but people don't always want to wait 12 hours or more.
 

ridgerunner

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Very interesting article, but how come if -?V actually overcharges nimh cells, why do nearly all of the chargers I've looked at on the web use it?

+1
Yeah, Why?

After reading SilverFox's excellent reference application note on the ST6210 charger chip above: (From Nickel-Cadmium To Nickel-Hydride Fast Battery Charger - by: J. NICOLAI, L. WUIDART), I now want a charger that stops on the inflection method! Give me a smoothed first derivative curve of V = f(t) and a charger that stops the fast charge before the battery starts heating up and damaging itself! (I wish that I had read this one month ago... I'm now saying: "D'oh!" for my four recent charger purchases: MH-C9000, Lacrosse BC-900, MH-C800S and MH-C401FS.) Are there any decent (kinder, gentler) NiMH chargers out there (inexpensive or otherwise) that use the ST6210 IC and its three termination methods?

Or is it just that folks are more interested in cramming every last mA into every charge (even though that extra last bit of charge may be damaging to the cells)? Or was the article just plain wrong and charging NiMH to the -dV/dt point is not actually harmful? (I find it difficult to believe that Maha would choose a default method that would be in any way harmful to the battery cells!)

Hey SilverFox, what's your take on this?
 

Mr Happy

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If you have a recent Maha C9000 and use it to charge Eneloops, the charging circuit terminates when the cell voltage reaches 1.47 V, which is before the peak voltage and before the cells get warm. Eneloops have their -dV at about 1.51 V, and I've never seen an Eneloop reach this point in the C9000 other than break-in mode. (In fact, I have not yet seen the C9000 terminate on -dV, though I am hoping to see it with some cheapo NiMH cells I bought from Harbor Freight to play with. These particular cells don't get higher than 1.41 V on break-in mode, so hopefully I will get to see the elusive -dV with them.)
 
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ridgerunner

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Five Methods?

The article describes the preferred fast charging method (to prevent any damage due to even the slightest overcharging) for NiMH batteries to be the: 1.) "Inflexion Point Detection" method, where the derivative of the Voltage-as-a-function-of-Time curve is smoothed and used to pick the inflexion point. (Because right after this inflexion point is where the (damaging) temperature really starts to rise.) The SGS-THOMSON ST6210 IC incorporates three additional back-up charge termination techniques: 2.) -dV/dt, 3.) Temperature High Limit Exceeded, and 4.) Timer Limit Exceeded.

So did I hear you right that the MH-C9000 uses a fifth method of charge termination? i.e. 5.) Voltage High Limit Exceeded?

willchueh where are you? Please tell me that my shiny new smart chargers are indeed smart (and gentle)!
 

Mr Happy

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That is a fascinating article, and the inflection point detection method does look interesting, though I suspect there may be some practical difficulties that the authors do not mention. I feel that good engineers would be aware of possible snags in a method and would mention drawbacks as well as benefits, so that others can be fully informed.

To detect the inflection point there is a need to take first and second numerical derivatives. Taking numerical derivatives is always difficult, especially with noisy signals, and the authors do mention that several kinds of smoothing are required. Another point is that if you don't start from an empty cell there might not be an inflection point to find, and then you have to catch the -dV or high temperature signal as a fall back.

This sparks my curiosity though, and I wonder if ultra-fast chargers like the Energizer 15 minute one use such a method...?

Regarding the C9000, I have not seen the high voltage termination officially documented, but I have observed it over many trials in such a consistent way that I am sure it exists. I believe in the past there were some worries about missed terminations with the first version of the C9000, and this high voltage test might be a safeguard that was added to help prevent them in the later firmware update.

I can say however, that I can charge Eneloops at a 1 amp rate and the cells really don't get significantly warm. I also know from discharge measurements that the cells are about 100 mAh short of a maximum charge if I remove them immediately they are done, but that is not a huge bother to me.
 
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ridgerunner

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So with the MH-C9000, if you leave the Eneloops on after the "Done" state is reached, my understanding is that (for both AAs and AAAs), a fixed "Top-off" charge of 100mA is provided for 2 hours, after which a 10mA trickle charge mode is entered forever. It seems that for AAs, this does an adequate job of topping off 2000mAh Eneloops in a relatively gentle manner. Yes? (But this extra 200mAh "top-off" does seem a bit much for AAAs?)

I wonder why Maha went with the -dV/dT termination method knowing that some (many?) NiMH batteries will not terminate properly, particularly at slow charge rates (<.33C which are actually better for battery life)? Instead, they recommend to always charge at a fast rate (so the -dV/dt will happen and be detectable) and then apparently use an over voltage back-up method (V > 1.47) to safe guard the process? (in addition to an over-temp cut-off.) Seems to me a kludge and certainly not optimal. (Note that according to SilverFox back in March of '06, the cutoff voltage for the MH-C808M was 1.6 Volts) Note that my La Crosse BC-900 charger gets away with charging at a slow (0.1C) 200mA rate by default and always seems to terminate properly (although it also supposedly uses the -dV/dt method). Go figr'.

After reading the (lengthy) MH-C808M and MH-C9000 threads here at CPF (with lots of helpful input from Maha's engineer - willchueh), and after actually using several of them myself hands on for a month or so, I feel (somewhat) knowledgeable about the Maha (and LaCrosse) chargers. But after reading SilverFox's recommended article, I am not terribly impressed with either brand! Does anyone know of any other brand chargers that utilize the "Inflexion Point Detection" method as described in the article?
 

tr098a

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This sparks my curiosity though, and I wonder if ultra-fast chargers like the Energizer 15 minute one use such a method...?

According to this datasheet http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/ch15mn.pdf
it uses
Shutoff Mechanism: Delta V Detection
Temperature Detection
Timer Control
All chargers i've looked at use -DeltaV, apart from that one i posted
http://www.vapextech.com.hk/ProdManagerA/ChinaIn/prodmain.asp?productid=504

If -deltaV method overcharges the battery before stopping, and using the inflection point undercharges it, surely stopping when the deltaV is 0 is the perfect charge? Or is this impractical to easily detect? Is that what this charger does? ^
 
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SilverFox

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Hello Ridgerunner,

Battery manufacturers recommend two charging rates. 0.1C for 16 hours, or in the range of 0.5 - 1.0C using a charge termination method.

You may be able to get away with slower charging rates at first, but as your battery ages the possibility of a missed termination increase. NiMh chemistry is very sensitive to over charging, so you end up with reduced cycle life.

The BC-900, C9000, Vanson Speedy Box, all of the other consumer chargers, and all of the hobby chargers miss primary termination when you charge at low rates. Fortunately, there are secondary termination methods that limit the amount of overcharge to the cell.

Your BC-900 does not get away with slow charging, it just cooks your cells, at a low simmer... :) , until it hits a secondary termination.

I am not aware of any charger manufacturer that advertises using inflexion point detection as the primary termination method. The closest thing we have had was the Ray O Vac IC3 charger. It terminated the charge on a build up of pressure inside the cell, which is directly comparable to the inflexion point.

Tom
 

SilverFox

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Hello Tr098a,

Using a low value for -dV termination (in the 0 - 3 mV per cell range) often results in false terminations and under charged cells. This works well at 1C charging rates, but at slower rates it is not unusual to see fluctuations in the voltage that will trigger termination before the cell if fully charged.

Tom
 

altis

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I agree with Mr Happy - relying on the differential of a noisy signal could be problematic. Note, I say could be. In practice, this may not be an issue.

Looking at the charge curve, it strikes me that there is plenty of information available much earlier in the charge cycle. With all the mathematical power of a microcontroller it should be possible to do some sort of curve fitting. That way you'd be averaging over the whole charge period and thus side-stepping any noise issues. Obviously, the algorithm would have to cope when the user tried to charge an already full cell but that's a problem whatever sort of charge termination you use.
 

Mr Happy

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The article linked to by SilverFox describing an inflection method for charge termination on NiMH cells made me curious enough to do an experiment of my own to see how it might work out.

For the test I used a "Chicago Electric" cell of 2000 mAh label capacity, which I measured at 1700mAh actual capacity using break-in mode on the Powerex MH-C9000 charger. This cell is from a set obtained at $3.49 for 4 at Harbor Freight, so I didn't feel too upset about torturing it in the pursuit of science.

The test itself consisted of charging the cell at a rate of 1600 mA (0.95C) and taking regular readings until the C9000 terminated the charge and showed "Done".

Since I lack sophisticated test equipment I had to improvise a bit. I measured time, voltage, and charge by reading the C9000 display, and I measured temperature using a thermocouple sensor attached to the wall of the cell and covered by a layer of paper and aluminium foil for insulation purposes. The C9000 only displays down to 10 mV resolution where 1 mV would have been ideal, but I was able to get a reasonable trend line by smoothing the data using a rolling average.

The first chart (below) shows the trend of voltage and temperature. Charging terminated after 82 minutes at which point the cell temperature had reached 51°C and the total charge input was 1971 mAh. After an 8 hour rest for the cell to cool down, a discharge test at 500 mA give a measurement of 1586 mA. This gives an estimated charging efficiency of 1586 / 1971 = 80%. We can also note that even at the -dV cutoff point, the cell was left apparently 100 mAh short of a full charge (unless the self-discharge over 8 hours was abnormally high, which needs another test not yet done).

voltagecurvemz8.png


The second chart shows the slope of the voltage curve (smoothed, to show the trend). It can be seen there are two inflection points, and it is the second one we are interested in. This occurs at a charge of about 1600 mAh, and this is where the charge would terminate if using the inflection method. Comparing with the first chart, the temperature at this point was 41°C, so ten degrees cooler than the maximum reached at -dV. If we assume the same charging efficiency of 80% applies, the actual stored charge would have been 0.8 x 1600 = 1280 mAh, now over 400 mAh or 25% short of a full charge.

voltageslopeqg8.png


Conclusions? Well, this is only one test on one cell of course, and it might not be the best quality cell either. On the other hand, real chargers cannot pick and choose which cells people will try to charge, so they need to be able to deal with whatever is thrown at them. Given that, it does seem that the inflection algorithm can be implemented and does provide a termination signal that can be detected.

With this particular cell the temperature rises throughout the charging process and therefore the cell still gets quite warm by the time the inflection point is reached. It also seems that the cell will not be fully charged at this point, so any algorithm of this nature would need to follow up with a significant top-off charge to ensure full charging.

In the future, if time and enthusiasm permit, I might repeat the experiment with an Eneloop. I do know, however, that the C9000 will not reach the -dV signal when charging an Eneloop, so it might actually terminate before the inflection point is reached. I suspect the low internal resistance of an Eneloop will lead to lower temperatures during the early part of the charge cycle. I also suspect the charging efficiency will be higher than 80%.
 
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altis

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Nice work Mr Happy - and well presented too. I'm impressed!

I'm looking forward to the Eneloop results too.
 

uk_caver

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Even at intermediate charge rates (0.1-0.5C), with adequate signal smoothing (which isn't hard with a microcontroller), from a naive viewpoint it would seem like it shouldn't be hard to find the 0deltaV point even if a -deltaV signal is not present to a useful extent.

Is it possible that at intermediate rates, even in a ideal clean-signal world, the 0deltaV point is actually *past* the point where the cells are overcharged?

At lower charge rates, is a given amount of overcharge more or less damaging to NiMH cells?
 

Mr Happy

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Even at intermediate charge rates (0.1-0.5C), with adequate signal smoothing (which isn't hard with a microcontroller), from a naive viewpoint it would seem like it shouldn't be hard to find the 0deltaV point even if a -deltaV signal is not present to a useful extent.
I have asked the same question in the past. I was shown a charging profile by someone here (I would have to search for the thread), which showed that a 0 dV point was not reached at all. The voltage retained a small positive slope for hours after the charge was essentially complete. So in practice you would have to test for a +dV point of a small enough value while avoiding the similarly small +dV slope that can occur during the middle of the charge.

Is it possible that at intermediate rates, even in a ideal clean-signal world, the 0deltaV point is actually *past* the point where the cells are overcharged?
Perhaps yes, you would have to conclude this considering my comment above.

At lower charge rates, is a given amount of overcharge more or less damaging to NiMH cells?
This I am not sure about. I think there are some irreversible chemical/physical changes that slowly occur in a cell during overcharge even at low temperatures, and of course excessive temperature is bad too. For many people, unless they are likely to reach the 500 cycle life expectancy of a cell, the shortening of cell life due to slight overcharging may not be noticed very much.

I was very interested to see in my test that the cell was not even fully charged at the -dV point, and never reached an overcharge state at all.
 

uk_caver

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I guess if at slow charge rates, there is a mid-charge slope that isn't any steeper than the slope at full charge, then unless slope measurement can be safely combined with absolute voltage readings, it's a problem.

However, there do seem to be quite a few smart chargers around which charge at significantly less than 0.5C, and which seem to terminate somewhere near the point of battery warming. Unless they're using temperature, they must presumably be using some kind of voltage measurement.

When it comes to smart chargers, do they all measure the off-charge voltage, or do some measure the voltage under charge?
Is there much difference in accuracy/curve shape between the two methods?
 
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