Who else here never "left home"?

Rather than continue to take another thread where this came up off-topic, I thought this merited a thread of its own. As I mentioned in that thread, outside of three semesters in college I've never lived apart from my folks, and I just turned 45 a few months ago. In my case, I pretty much have had no choice. Housing here is ridiculously expensive. A studio apartment, which I couldn't fit my stuff into anyway, would run at least $1000 a month. A home in a decent area is at least $500K. I don't drive (nor can afford a car) so relocating to someplace cheaper is pretty much out, nor would I want to since I'm a city person. The readily available jobs here mostly seem to pay $3 to $10 an hour. You either have know somebody or get lucky to find a job paying much more. On even $10 an hour lots of luck paying $1000+ a month rent. I once figured you need to make about $75K before taxes here to be able to be completely on your own. Jobs paying that much don't grow on trees. And I've had carpal tunnel syndrome since my late 20s, effectively preventing me from working full time anyway. The combination of all these things basically means I can't live on my own anywhere, much less here. Thankfully, the house is paid for, I do enough home repairs to easily cover the extra expenses incurred because I'm here (i.e. food, electricity). I was with both my parents until dad died almost two years ago. Now it's just mom and me.

Who else here who is well past the usual age most people leave home (let's say older than about 30), but has chosen for whatever reason to stay with their extended family? Also, give your reasons, if any. In some cases there might be disability, or lack of employment opportunities, or just not wanting to live alone, or perhaps to care for aging parents. I'm curious about this because I'm sure I'm not the only one. Truth is eventually I'll be in charge of the household one way or another unless I die before my mom. I have no illusions about that. But when my mom goes in 20 or 30 or perhaps even 40 years I'll be a lot better financial shape than today.

For what it's worth this isn't that uncommon in my family. My brother moved back in with us for 18 months in his late 30s to save for a house. One of my cousins was home with his parents until his early 40s. He only left because his job moved to Ohio and he didn't want to look for another one. Another of my mother's cousins was with his mom until she died at 90. He was in his 60s at the time. My sister is the only one who left fairly early (at 24), but she split expenses with her boyfriend/husband-to-be. I would leave if I ever got married, but that's about the only reason why. Or maybe I might not. I could raise the roof on this house, make an upstairs apartment for my wife and myself, just so I could be there for my mother in case she needs me.

On another note, the whole moving out when you're a young adult seems uniquely American. In most other countries there are several generations living together under the same roof. I think it's better that way. Everyone does the household chores best suited to them. Overall, there is way less work per person than living alone. And it keeps demand for housing, and housing prices, lower. I can't help but think all these 20-somethings desiring to be on their own are one factor putting rents through the roof. I'm also sure most of them get lots of help from their parents. After all, paying for a $3K a month apartment in midtown is impossible on the typical $20K to $30K salary someone in their 20s might get.

Ummm, don't confuse those living beyond their means as the correct and proper way of living. Ever watch the PBS Suzy Orman special on the problem with today's young adults?
Every late teen, 20 somethings and some 30s folks should watch it.

Money is a finite resource. If you can't afford to live alone, be grateful to have a previous generation that could subsidize you.
But it is your personal responsibility to become independent. Whether or not your parents did a good enough job in preparing you to successfully transition to that reality. There are pitfalls to a nuclear family too. You put all your eggs in one basket, what happens if that basket is lost to due disaster?
There is an advantage to diversifying your resources. Leaving the nest also provides you with a true frame/point of reference as to what your priorities must become. It's a milestone to maturity and self reliance and decision making.

There's an old saying. I think it goes, "A seedling won't grow much if it stays under the shadow of its tree."

Staying at home and never moved out makes you soft and comfortable with your situation. And you don't realize it. As a person who has experienced both, I opine my view from the outside looking in.
Prolonging this situation, and you'll condition your frame of mind from CAN'T to actually meaning WON'T.

This best compromise is probably a mix of both lifestyles. But when in Rome....
Leaving the nest is a natural and necessary step in life.
You won't find much support from me for living at home with mom.

Note: beggars can't be choosers...if as you state, 20s and with a 20-30k annual income, then you must be working fulltime at McDs. If you were disciplined enough to finish college, picked a worthy major, then it's 50k-65k starting salary, and 75-100k annual within 4 years later if you are diligent.
Please pick an example that represents the proper course, not one based on a broken system of values. You're not supposed to able to live in Midtown, or vacation on the French Riviera making 20k.

WNG said:

But it is your personal responsibility to become independent.

....

Leaving the nest is a natural and necessary step in life.
You won't find much support from me for living at home with mom.

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I'm not looking for support from anybody here. I'm just curious as to how many others here are in a similar situation. And make no mistake, in my case right now it's a combination of "can't", and "wouldn't want to even if I could", not "won't". Even if I was making $200K a year I'd be home, just I'd be paying all the bills instead of mom. IMHO, leaving home you trade being dependent upon a parent to being dependent upon an employer, and perhaps also roommates. And I am building towards eventual independence. Just on what I make it'll probably take me another 20 years to be able to buy this house off my mother. I'm limited at this point to working 10, perhaps 20 hours a week tops due to my carpal tunnel syndrome and a few other issues. That really makes self-employment the only option. I can take work, or turn it away if I can't physically do it, and the hourly rate is way better than any employer will give me. In case you're curious how I got the CTS in the first place, it was from being pushed to take any job by my parents. I tried but couldn't get a job in my field out of college, so I ended up doing a few very physical jobs for a few years which basically ruined my hands. Honestly, I was gravitating towards self-employment anyway. I just wish I hadn't destroyed most of my ability to work on mostly $2 to $7 an hour menial jobs I did just to get my parents off my back.

I watch Suze Orman from time to time also. I see lots of people there still in their 30s, living at home, making good money. Despite all that they don't have any savings, and on top of that have tens of thousands in charge card bills. To me that's a slap in the face to those supporting you. If you don't give any money home, at least put most of what you make into the bank. That's what I've done ever since my early 20s. Nothing gets charged unless it can be paid in full by the end of the month, I've never taken vacations. If I spend a few hundred a year on my hobbies it's a lot.

It's also important to realize some people can never take that step of leaving the nest. Maybe they have some disability which prevents them from earning enough. Maybe they have emotional issues with being alone. Or maybe they just plain lack the energy to work full time and then take care of a household.

If you were disciplined enough to finish college, picked a worthy major, then it's 50k-65k starting salary, and 75-100k annual within 4 years later if you are diligent.

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Let's see, my sister and I both finished college. She's been working full-time ever since she graduated. The most she ever made was $42K when she worked in Manhattan. Now she makes less working on Long Island. She's hardly lazy or stupid but that's all she can get in the current economic climate. Believe, she's looked, even interviewed for a few other jobs, but nothing paid even as good as what she was getting. I actually would have made close to 30K the last year I worked full-time (1990) had I not been laid off but that was with OT. 30K would actually have been pretty good money for the time. I don't know anybody making even in the range of your $50K to $65K "starting salary", and that includes some Ivy League college graduates with years of work experience. What are these "worthy majors" you speak of? I studied engineering in an Ivy League school. By all accounts I should have had an easy time getting employment but I didn't even get an interview after sending a few thousand resumes. Reality nowadays is $40K if you're really lucky, more like $20-$25K for most of what's out there, degree or not. My friend who owns a taxi meter shop pays his employees $10 an hour or less. He can't afford more. He's competing with other meter shops which pay $2 or $3 an hour to illegal immigrants. Lots of other employers in similar positions these days. Unfortunately, the American worker is competing with $100 a month labor from China. That would be fine except the costs of living have outpaced salaries.

You're not supposed to able to live in Midtown, or vacation on the French Riviera making 20k.

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No, but you can't even live in the outer boroughs on $20K. You need about $60K just to break even given rents, income taxes, and food prices. Don't forget on a $60K salary easily half goes for federal, state, local, FICA taxes, commuting costs, work clothes, health insurance deductions. That leaves only $2500 a month to cover rent, food, saving for retirement, etc. Mayor Bloomberg's ideas for subsidized "middle class" housing is ~$2,000 a month rents. That gives you some idea of how high housing is here, even in the outer boroughs.

Most of my rebuttals to your response can be derived in my initial post.

I leave you with a few points...

There's an often challenged, but seldom wrong, theory called Darwin's Theory of Evolution. It's basis...survival of the fittest. Adaptation.
We've all learned it, some here probably condemn it. But I am a firm believer.
The game of life is survival. That means you must adapt. Your parents, like mine, came to this country in search of a better life, more prosperity. Because they weren't ABLE to achieve that in their homeland. They came, they struggled, they adapted, they managed to raise you and your siblings, and buy a house in Queens, NY. Probably did all that by your age, and without an Ivy League engineering degree. (If they managed to pay for your college, more kudos to them)
So, I put it to you, what is your excuse? Times have changed? It's tough out there? It's really no different a scenerio for them to go through. But they didn't give up. Because they knew they can't. But you gave up before you even tried to put in a real effort, from my assessment of your responses.
They didn't have any parents to live with because they found life was too hard. If anything they had to support their parents. Yeah I know this life firsthand.

Onto your debilitating injury. There are many folks with far greater handicaps and iinjuries than CTS, and they manage to live on their own. If you can type posts in abundance here, then your CTS isn't a disability. If you can pound the streets of NYC on your bicycle at full speed, then CTS is not a problem.
Your disability justification is all wet. I know what it's like to ride in NYC. I was born and raised there. Rode on Queens and Northern Blvd to cross the Queensboro Bridge to get to work as a teen. If you can ride, your wrists are fine.

As for the salary...my starting salary was 50k in '99. I graduated with a BS in EE, not from an Ivy League school. I struggled to put myself through it after dropping out 10 years earlier from NYU. At the same time, I worked when school was out, and bought a condo fixer upper. In 2001, my ex-wife's starting salary was 54k for a BS or CS and minor in Mathematics. All during the eve of the dot.com bust. Took her 8 months to get that job....meantime she worked gratis doing coding, and working at Radio Shack.
Just how hungry are you to get that job??
1 1/2 years at my job, I managed to switch jobs to a start up, and was offered mid 80s salary and a signing bonus. Another required move netted six figures. What did that require? 60-80 hr weeks of work, sometimes staying overnight with crisis management. It required working for no pay because things weren't good during that era. It required learning a lot of new skills. Going beyond the title or job description.
My closest cousin who is 14 years my junior, is a BS of CE, and has been with the same employer, he's making six figures.
I ask you again, how hungry are you??

My worthwhile majors? Those would be Chemical, Mechanical, Electrical Engineering, Bio-tech, Pharmacy, Dentistry, Nursing, Accounting, Law.

What engineering degree did you earn? At Columbia or Princeton? Or was it Stanford?
NYC is not a hot job haven for engineering. You go where the demand is.
Unless you're a top software engineer, and try out for Google.

A refrigerator salesman can't complain sales are lousy when he's trying to sell in Antarctica.

Even so, I have cousins residing in NYC, all graduated in the past 2 years from
SUNY. One is with Merril Lynch, after a hard effort to acquire a job. Another is a ME, and is with the big engineering firm building the new JFK air terniinal.
Both have apartments in Queens, both just bought Nissan Maxima SE's.

You are not really qualified to make a plausible case for yourself. Like I stated, outside looking in is my response. You are stuck focused only on your personal depth of field. Too focused on what you can't do, and not concentrating on what you can do.

JTR, take all that I wrote as constructive criticism. You sound like a truly nice guy. And you really are the only one who can affect a change in your life, if you desire it. Trust me, I know your situation better than you think.

Everyone who ends up reading this thread, and feel down on their luck. We've all been there, myself included. To some very dark depths of personal and financial tragedy. You just have to brush yourself off and come back fighting.
You live, and learn, and must have the will to survive. You'll be amazed what the human will can achieve.

Life is what you make of it.

There will be no further responses from me.

I know you said you won't respond further in this thread but I'll answer some of what you said for the benefit of others:

The game of life is survival. That means you must adapt. Your parents, like mine, came to this country in search of a better life, more prosperity. Because they weren't ABLE to achieve that in their homeland. They came, they struggled, they adapted, they managed to raise you and your siblings, and buy a house in Queens, NY. Probably did all that by your age, and without an Ivy League engineering degree. (If they managed to pay for your college, more kudos to them)

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My parents were both born here. They had the advantage of very cheap rents relative to salaries. My parents were paying I think $40 for rent when they married, and taking home about $90 a week combined. They also had the benefit of two salaries, plus the motivation having a companion gives you. Now where are those rents equivalent to one weeks average take home pay (that would be perhaps $400 in NYC)? And no, they didn't pay for most of my college. I got stuck with loans. College degrees mattered a lot less back then, too. You could still earn a decent living without one. These days you can't.

Regarding Darwin's theory, I like to think by creating civilization we've evolved past the point where cutthroat competition for survival matters.

Onto your debilitating injury. There are many folks with far greater handicaps and iinjuries than CTS, and they manage to live on their own. If you can type posts in abundance here, then your CTS isn't a disability. If you can pound the streets of NYC on your bicycle at full speed, then CTS is not a problem.

Your disability justification is all wet. I know what it's like to ride in NYC. I was born and raised there. Rode on Queens and Northern Blvd to cross the Queensboro Bridge to get to work as a teen. If you can ride, your wrists are fine.

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Periodically I've made orders of about 500 boards for a client. After doing this (which takes roughly a week), I'm done for the next month. Check my posting history. Lots of times with several weeks of sparse posting. Guess why? I've only posted a lot recently because my hands recouped enough after resting about a month from the last batch of 500. That tech job repairing taximeters I mentioned I got laid off from? Well, come December I was planning to give them a two week notice. Just couldn't do it any more. My mom developed the same thing in her 40s. Tested and verified. She was lucky to have had a job which paid her disability for the next 20+ years. My taximeter job didn't.

Riding a few times a week is irrevelant. I know where the potholes are. I avoid them. Even with that, I've had to cut my riding from 3K miles a year to perhaps 1K. The ability to ride 20 miles a week doesn't prove I don't have CTS. Sometimes I can't make a closed fist for a few days after a long ride. Note that's it's called repetitive stress injury. Doing several varied tasks doesn't affect it. Doing similar tasks all day long, as would be the case with work, does. And I'll mention I have a very high tolerance for pain. I've had a tooth pulled without anesthesia. I'll push my hands sometimes to the point they lock up, ignoring the pain. The same thing unfortunately was my mom's undoing.

1/2 years at my job, I managed to switch jobs to a start up, and was offered mid 80s salary and a signing bonus. Another required move netted six figures. What did that require? 60-80 hr weeks of work, sometimes staying overnight with crisis management. It required working for no pay because things weren't good during that era. It required learning a lot of new skills. Going beyond the title or job description.

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I'm glad you have the energy for this. I never had that kind of energy. I could do 80 hour weeks or push myself occasionally, but I always needed a few weeks in between that to recuperate. I needed the entire summer to recuperate from the school year. When I was in school come the end of the week I was dead tired. Ditto for work, even a 40 hour week. I've long had a theory that those who are more successful than others probably simply have a biologically higher energy level. Don't bother berating me as lazy, either. It's simply a case of can't do it. I helped my friend a few years ago at his shop during the rate change. This involved about three weeks of the kind of schedule you mentioned with no days off. In the middle of all this one of 24-year old cousins died, and I wanted to attend her funeral. I asked for a day off. Turns out I was so dead tired I couldn't even get out of bed that day so I didn't attend. It took me three months to feel even half normal again. Like I said, if you can work this kind of schedule wonderful. I can't, and it isn't from lack of trying.

I ask you again, how hungry are you??

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Honest answer, money and material things give me zero motivation. Maybe that's part of the problem. I'd be perfectly happy working part time at a research lab even if all I got in return was room and board. I couldn't care less about owning a car, or having fancy clothes. Fact is when people wanted less, and worked less as a consequence, I think we were all better off. What good are all the fancy trimmings if you lack the time or are too tired to enjoy them?

What engineering degree did you earn? At Columbia or Princeton? Or was it Stanford?

NYC is not a hot job haven for engineering. You go where the demand is.
Unless you're a top software engineer, and try out for Google.

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Since you asked, Princeton. And I've heard the relocation speech a hundred times. I found living in a sleepy town like Princeton boring to the point of being suicidal. The American suburbs where most of these engineering jobs would never work for me. And ask yourself, what good is a job you might like if you hate every other aspect of your life? I can't stand traveling by car (it makes me physically ill actually), don't really like much else about the US once you get out of the big cities. No offence to those living elsewhere intended here. It's just that going across the Hudson River into mainland USA I feel like a foreigner. It's probably a NYC thing.

Everyone who ends up reading this thread, and feel down on their luck. We've all been there, myself included. To some very dark depths of personal and financial tragedy. You just have to brush yourself off and come back fighting.

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Well, I'm about to go into some very personal stuff I've only touched on in other posts as a response to this since it might make my unique situation easier to understand.

I've mentioned this before but in my junior year of college I attempted suicide. I've mentioned some of the reasons in my other posts. Others are just too personal. Basically I planned to let one of the mid-day Metroliners run into me at 125mph at Princeton Junction. Turns out the train I was counting on was late that day, came through at only 60 mph (not enough to do the job). I didn't take any ID with me that day. I wanted it to be for my family as if I had just ran off. I figured at 125 mph nothing identifiable would be left so they would just think I went off somewhere to find myself, hoping in time I would return even though I never would. By the time the next train came (at 130+ mph) I had already lost the nerve and was physically ill. Couldn't do it. Funny thing is I hear suicide is a coward's way out. Well, to plan to kill yourself and nearly go through with it took the most courage I've ever found in myself. For a few brief moments it was all simply life or death, no emotions, just the resolve to get it over with so the pain would be gone.

I took a year off after that, went back, got my degree. However, for years depression lingered. Cycling probably helped keep me alive. It's taken me a good 15-20 years to really get as over all that as much as I could. So at the very time when you say I should have been planning to leave the nest, I was in a post-suicidal state. Earning a living or planning a career was the last thing on my mind. I've had to deal with years of berating by relatives because they never were told the full story. It took me a good ten years to even tell my mother. She mentioned it to my dad, and his wonderful response was if he feels like killing himself then he should just do it. Even now, I frankly lack a good reason to open my eyes each day but I try to find one. Just doing it for yourself is a meaningless, solitary existence. Try to imagine your life had you not met certain people who may have helped motivate you, and then you'll understand 10% of what I've gone through. Literally nothing significant I did in my life ever worked out the way it should have. Sure, lots of nonsense hobby stuff I've posted has, but in the scheme of things that's almost meaningless. So go on I do, yes. But the capability for anything else has been long gone. I may well live to 120 given that my overall health (except the CTS) is fairly good, but I don't know that I will ever live again. That probably ended on an April day some 26 years ago.

Oh, and in case you're curious my siblings went through a lot of the same stuff I did. My sister may have attempted suicide in college. She claimed to have taken half a bottle of aspirin but we were never sure if she actually did. My brother has gotten into pretty bad depressions on a regular basis. A lot of that just came from the same factors as with me-things just never working out despite putting the effort in. Of the three of us, my sister is the only one to have really made a decent life, but had she not met her husband, she might well have gone down the path I did.

Anyway, thanks for your time posting and if you took the time to read all this, thanks again! I'm venting here more than anything. I'm not looking for sympathy, job offers, money, or anything else. I have what little of my family is left for that.

Now my hands really are starting to hurt.

jtr1962 said:

You need about $60K just to break even given rents, income taxes, and food prices. Don't forget on a $60K salary easily half goes for federal, state, local, FICA taxes, commuting costs, work clothes, health insurance deductions. That leaves only $2500 a month to cover rent, food, saving for retirement, etc. Mayor Bloomberg's ideas for subsidized "middle class" housing is ~$2,000 a month rents. That gives you some idea of how high housing is here, even in the outer boroughs.

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I think you and I must live in a different New York. My stipend is about $27k/year and I bring in another $3k tutoring. Yet I manage to live alone just fine. A friend of mine just got a junior 1-bedroom in Forest Hills for just a touch over $1100/month.

As for working, my regular work (I'm doing research for my MDPhD) schedule is Mon-Fri 12 hrs/day, Sat 8 hrs, Sun 4 hrs. Yes, I've been doing 72 hours/week minimum for the past 6.5 years... Usually I take about 1 weekend off, every 3 months or so.

I'm sorry that you don't have the energy to work so hard, but neither do I. I just push myself. I need to succeed, because my parents got to this country with nothing, and used up any chance for accumulating retirement income by paying for me to go to a top school. I need to be able to take care of them, when they cannot work, and I need to be able to afford to start a family in the next few years. So whether or not I "have the energy" is irrelevant. Either I succeed, through whatever difficulties, or I lose at life.

WNG: NICE!!! Some great points in your posts, and super true. I too get tired of people saying things like "I can't" or "my situation is just too hard" or whatever. If someone really wants something, they will effect changes to accomplish those goals. When people have excuses for every little thing, they are in my opinion trying to convince themselves as much as they are others, of why they don't or shouldn't have to do what is necessary to accomplish those goals.

There are oodles of people with rough circumstances who decide they are going to make things happen, and so they quit feeling sorry for themselves, they quit the "woe is me" speech, and they just do it. It's not always easy, but they do it.

And I don't think that a person can honestly say they are not looking for some sympathy or something when they tell the whole world about their personal circumstances and how things are so tough and the outlook is so bleak for them. That is what they are looking for. That's why they do it.

meuge said:

I think you and I must live in a different New York. My stipend is about $27k/year and I bring in another $3k tutoring. Yet I manage to live alone just fine. A friend of mine just got a junior 1-bedroom in Forest Hills for just a touch over $1100/month.

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$1100 month = $13.2K a year (is that a special student rate, BTW?). Out of your $30K a year, about $7 goes for FICA, federal, state, and local income taxes unless you're cheating on taxes. Subway is $81 a month with the monthly Metrocard. That leaves you less than $9K for food, clothes, supplies, etc. That's tight. Very tight. My mom is having trouble making ends meet with ~$625 a week net on a house which is already paid for. I guess we're really living in different worlds. On that money you likely can't even save anything for retirement. And you expect to start a family in a few years, and take care of your elderly parents? Better plan on working those 72 hour weeks until you die then because there's no way you can retire with finances like those. And incidentally that probably will be long before you retire anyway unless you cut down your hours. My dad started working two jobs at about 50. He had a massive heart attack four years later. He survived it, but the second one he had in 2006 killed him. You can ignore the signs your body is giving you if you want. Take some friendly advice here to not do that if you want to outlive your parents. Sorry to be so blunt but you lose at life if you're not alive. Better to have less but have more time to enjoy it. Your choice.

I started this thread with a light-hearted intention just to see if anyone else was in a similar situation, not as any play for sympathy. WNG turned it into something more serious and I took it from there. However, I half expected the usual share of "grow up already", "you're full of it", and similar comments. You and nbp can go ahead with more of the same if it suits your fancy-I enjoy the entertainment, have a thick skin, and frankly couldn't care less. I don't see that anything productive will come from it, but if you both enjoy it then by all means go ahead. I haven't cared about what others or society thinks of me since, oh, like junior high school.

Now can we maybe have a little fun with this topic instead of taking it so seriously?

jtr1962... you started this topic... a spin-off from another thread. You state that you expected certain responses. Now you claim that you really don't care what the responses are... you just want to have a little fun? Hmmm... :thinking: ... well, I guess there are some of us who you might say have "been there, done that" and we just take things a little bit more seriously. I've never been one to give out much sympathy... as my drill instructor told me in basic training, "You'll find sympathy between s**t and syphilis in the dictionary... not here." I always kinda liked that... :thumbsup:

Anyway... us "old folk" remember how things were when we were your age. Hell, at your age, I'd already done a year and a half in the Army, gotten out, got married, had a 4 year old kid, lived at 3 different military installations in the U.S., seperated from my husband, got back together with my husband, and was living in Munich Germany working in the Guesthouse on the Kaserne and running the accounting department! Yeah... all that by the time I was 24 years old! Go figure! And here I am almost 22 years later. There's nothing I CAN'T do. Are there things I won't do? SURE! But I can have that luxury now... I've earned it with alot of years of taking care of myself and doing whatever I needed to do to make myself independant and self-sufficient. You see... my husband was in the military for the first 13 years of our marriage. And now he's a cop. Each day he walks out the door could be the last time I see him. I've known that since the day we said "I do". I take care of myself. And my children will be able to do the same.

We're not trying to demean or bag on you. We just don't understand your logic or mentality. It's not the same as what we were raised with.... and I honestly can't say that I'm real upset about that.

i hated liveing at home .so i moved out pretty young ..

JTR, if you have not checked recently, the modern CTS treatments are very sucessful. Well worth saving money for.

Like some others, I've managed to pay $1000 a month rent with less than $30K income. It's tight, but doable. It took me about 10 years to shake the "extra frugal" mindset after I finally started making better money.

The nice thing about making $25K a year is that you pay almost no taxes compared to someone making $150K.

I think it's good that JTR and his family have a relationship that allows them to share a house. It seems to work for both of them, so that's a good thing.

I happen to be convinced that evolution has hardwired teenagers such that they are total pains in the asses. This is the only way that parents will kick them out of the nest. This helps to disperse the species so that we don't over use loacal resources. If you look around nature, you see lions chase off adolescent males, and birds push their young from the nest.

And yet... sometimes on a micro level the larger forces don't quite apply.

Daniel

My bad... I just realized that I misread (didn't catch?!?! :duh2: ) that JTR is about to turn 45... just a year younger than me. Sorry...

In much of the world and in earlier rural America, the multi-generational home was pretty much an economic necessity. Lot's of kids meant lots of ready labor and care for the elder members.

Still common and necessary in much of the world. Not so much in the USA.

I have to agree with Sasha. Those of us who went independent at early ages don't really understand the stay at home folks in todays context.

Uh, I think Doc Phil is still hiding from Brit's mom.

ttran97 said:

*** Paging Dr. Phil...Dr. Phil, you are needed in the CPF Cafe. Paging Dr. Phil...***

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Yeah.... That dude isn't even a real doctor. He's the guy Oprah picked to help her lawyer when it came time for jury selection. (That's his specialty). Back when she was sued by the Cattle Industry. Apparently, Mr. Phil impressed the Hell out of her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back to on topic:

I can understand part of what jtr is saying. It's expensive living in NYC. And some of the places with the highest rent rates are just.... Let me put it this way, I used to work in Soho as a security guard in a residential building. The residents were all beyond what you'd call "financially stable."

Walk through Soho one time. And you'll quickly notice that it's a ghetto, with the most trendy shops lining the streets.

Moving out on your own? Yeah, it's possible to pull off. Find a nice apartment.... and then get yourself a roomate or two to help pay the expenses of.... living on your own?? Hope and pray that the total stranger you move in with doesn't steal your stuff the first time you leave your apartment. (But I'll admit that's not too common).

There are other issues involved with having a roomate or two. "House Rules" aren't as simple as trying not to annoy each other too much.

My folks had me late in life. And while I do own a co-op apartment, mom helped me in getting it. (She wanted to make sure that if I ever lost a job, I'd still have a place to live; and without worrying about the ridiculous annual rent hikes). Thing is though, she's at the point in life where I'd worry about her if she lived alone. Dad stops by for annual and unwelcomed visits every year. He's at the point where he can still function normally on a daily basis. But yeah, he has his "moments."

Dad did tell me of a man he used to work with over at the MTA. The guy got a job when he was 16, worked there, got promoted from within, and retired at 65 with benefits and a nice pension. Yeah, that doesn't happen nowadays.... Truth is I never got married, for three reasons:

1 - Never found the right girl. Never even found one who was "close enough."

2 - Saw how "wonderful" married life is for my folks. (Let's just leave it at that).

3 - Money! And lack thereof. I have enough to take care of myself and mom. (Dad has his own money). But taking care of a wife and child. Being responsible for a new life that I helped to bring into this world? That wouldn't be fair to me, or the child who has no say in the matter of who his parents are. And living in this city, I have seen some folks who have kids.... Wow do I freaking feel sorry for those kids!

I have a good friend who's a Master Electrician. Young guy, recently got married, just had a baby.... He makes 6 figures.

Unless you are great at making money, or you get yourself a city job; you'll most likely earn enough just to be a bit comfortable. You want a family? Get yourself a city job.

But if you have the strength to work and go to back to school, that's another option worth exploring. Sometimes it's not that simple. But it's a real option.

Sasha said:

My bad... I just realized that I misread (didn't catch?!?! :duh2: ) that JTR is about to turn 45... just a year younger than me. Sorry...

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I turned 45 in November Sasha. You're hardly "old folk" to me.

Monocrom said:

Dad did tell me of a man he used to work with over at the MTA. The guy got a job when he was 16, worked there, got promoted from within, and retired at 65 with benefits and a nice pension.

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Very true. I thought of hiring with the MTA once, even took a test for signal maintainer. However, by the time I was called my CTS would have kept me from doing the job. I heard later that the MTA just needed the new hires for temporary project. They were laid off before they passed probation. Would have been a complete waste of my time. City jobs at one time were a good thing. Now with the tiered system of pensions (new hires are a lot worse off), and lower pay relative to private industry they're at best good only for job security. Even that's no longer a given. Both my parents worked for the city. If not for that they wouldn't have done half of what they did. Those days are over.

Truth is I never got married, for three reasons:

1 - Never found the right girl. Never even found one who was "close enough."

2 - Saw how "wonderful" married life is for my folks. (Let's just leave it at that).

3 - Money! And lack thereof. I have enough to take care of myself and mom. (Dad has his own money). But taking care of a wife and child. Being responsible for a new life that I helped to bring into this world? That wouldn't be fair to me, or the child who has no say in the matter of who his parents are. And living in this city, I have seen some folks who have kids.... Wow do I freaking feel sorry for those kids!

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Same here, especially number two. For a time, the cops used to show up at our place for "domestic disputes" on a regular basis. As a kid, I remember sometimes listening to my parents fight constantly, and hoping they would just kill each other. It was that bad. As for why they stayed married, probably more force of habit, and my mother's disability from CTS in her early 40s.

But if you have the strength to work and go to back to school, that's another option worth exploring. Sometimes it's not that simple. But it's a real option.

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Thought of that but decided I don't want to work for others anyway, so advanced degrees are pointless. At one time I might have liked a nice research job, one that almost certainly would have required a PhD, but that time has come and gone. Not many local research jobs anyway.

Sasha said:

jtr1962... you started this topic... a spin-off from another thread. You state that you expected certain responses. Now you claim that you really don't care what the responses are... you just want to have a little fun? Hmmm... :thinking: ...

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You misinterpreted me a bit. I DO care about the responses. I just mean that those people trying to "set me straight" might as well be talking to a wall. I'm doing what I'm doing regardless. It works for me and my family even if it might not work for most of the others here.

I'll also add that I have a very deep sense of personal responsibility regarding one's offspring. That's why I would never have kids unless I was wealthy. While I agree it's great if kids leave the nest and make their own life, many times it can't happen due to external factors, or even injury. IMHO, we're headed for a major economic depression within the next decade. This depression may well last the remainder of our adult lives. Now what if I had kids? I might not be in a position to support them past puberty. I'd basically be leaving them to the whims of the world. Regardless of how well prepared they are, if there are no jobs for them they're screwed. So I would only have kids if I had the resources to support them comfortably for life, rather than have them be dependent upon jobs which may not exist. My grandfather told me stories of how he was at times the only one working during the Great Depression. He had to feed our whole extended family. If not for him, they may well have starved. We're smug if we think this can never happen again. IMHO, and I'm 100% sure most here will not agree, I feel if you can't provide your offspring with lifetime support you probably shouldn't have them. What Monocrom's mother did for him with the co-op is what I feel any parent should do. My parents were never in a position to help us much with anything, even college. My dad didn't even seem overly excited when I was accepted to Princeton and Yale (I really wanted MIT, almost made it too ). It was as if I said I'm going to the grocery store. I don't wish that on anyone.

Honestly...if I would of never met my current girlfriend I would still be living at home. I did stay in the back guest house so it was completely detached from the main house.

Life is defintely better when you don't have to worry about rent. While I never had too much credit card debt. I spent pretty recklessly, bought a second car, an atv, went on vacations. It was great.

Now that I've had a taste of being on my own, I am much more wise with my money. While I do share an apt with my gf, I do not pay a single dime in rent. She just refused to take it! Its a thing she has with being independant. So what I do is cover all other expenses which is actually more than half the rent

If I were to ever break up with this extremly hot, caring, and smart girlfriend
I would defintely go get a place on my own and have a nice bachelor pad complete with lava lamp.

Its just soooo nice being independant. Try it!

Life's path is different for everyone. I don't see anything wrong with jtr1962 living with his parents. I moved out when I was 30, and thought everything was going to be so wonderful until reality hit. 14 years has gone by and this is how I see life.
1- Dated and married my wife who spends too much money
2- Went through layoffs and almost had no place to live.
3- Just because you can make good money does not bring happiness. I know alot of people that make good money, but are highly stressed at their job and bring it home to take out the frustration on their family.
4- For me married life sucks and I would rather be single.
5- I don't have the amount of play money that I would like to have, since it does go to bills and taxes.

I would say 90% of married couples that I know are not happy, financially struggling, and have no life.
So...if jtr1962 is happy at home, and his Mom enjoys having him there, then he living a good life.