Disappointed in SF 60L

Gearhead Jim · Feb 16, 2008

For several years, my pocket light has been a SF G2 Nitrilon. Looking to get the slightly brighter light and much longer runtimes, I just bought a 60L module from SF. Tonight I did some testing, and the 60L simply does not give me the distance of the old P60. We live in the country, with little surrounding light. 52 yards from my back door is a tree line, and a 8" x 16" target that is painted black with natural wood circles of 4" down to 1".

With the P60 module in my unit; the target does not jump out at me, but I can see it if I look carefully, and can barely distinguish the 4" circle.

With the 60L module; I simply can not find the target even though I know where to look. It also seems that I can't see as far into the trees, but that's more difficult to judge.

The testing was done with the same G2, batteries, etc. The only thing changed was the module, and I switched back and forth several times to be sure of my results. The 60L module was checked within 15 seconds of being turned on, so heat buildup should not be an issue.

This is pretty disappointing, can anyone explain what is happening?

Also, what wouold be the run time down to 50% brightness in the 60L, with the SF brand batteries? I don't believe that 11 hour stuff now.

txgp17 · Feb 16, 2008

Surefire's 2008 Catalog has a runtime chart on page 47, you're looking at 3 hours to 50% capacity.

Was this your first LED?

If you want throw, I suggest a Bug Out Gear drop in. Or if you're on a budget, a SolarForce model off Ebay, they have great throw too.

I think the thing that would make you most happy is a Malkoff Devices M60L, it runs for at least 4.5 hours at 140 lumens. I have a M60LL (two L's) and it runs at 80 lumens for about 9-10 hours. The problem is that Malkoff's stuff is hard to come by.

kongfuchicken · Feb 16, 2008

Led modules by SF throttle down in nitrolon lights due to the horrid heat dissipation. On the other hand, the runtime is increased as the current level is lowered. 15 seconds is plenty for that effect to kick in.

While I don't have precise numbers, you can find out by yourself easily by either searching on the ubiquitous reviews of p60 led modules around or simply do a test yourself.

Note that your millage may vary greatly with ambient temperature, holding the light or putting it down, brand of batteries and the current mood of the all-powerful random factor.

Also, it has been a clear consensus that incandescent flashlights work better outdoors due to their wavelength composition. The "light wash-out" effect that you saw with your p60L is a combination of these factors.

The P60L is nonetheless a great tool for emergencies where the reach doesn't matter as much as the runtime. If your goal is solely to illuminate things at a distance, may I suggest a high power incandescent light with a wide reflector?

asdalton · Feb 16, 2008

The P60L has about the same total light output as the P60, but it has considerably less throw due to having a physically larger light emitter in the same sized reflector. This is a recurring theme with LEDs versus incandescents.

A general rule is that if you want an LED to have equal throw to an incandescent, you need either a larger reflector or more output from the LED.

As for runtime, I think that the G2L will run at full intensity for about 3 hours in a metal light or 4.5 hours (with reduced output) in a plastic light. Someone on CPF has measured this.

There are other LED drop-in replacements for the P60, and many of these are much brighter than the Surefire P60L. The BugOutGear Cree drop-in throws a very strong beam and makes the P60L look like a joke.

jinx626 · Feb 17, 2008

return it and get a malkoff M60 high output drop-in. you won't regret it.

Beastmaster · Feb 17, 2008

I have units with the P60L LED, the BOG Q5 , the Malkoff Q5, and the OpticsHQ Q5.

The P60L is a shorter unit that doesn't have the optical throw that the other units have. If I was to compare the reflector sizes, they are the same diameter, but the P60L is not as deep.

The P60L also is designed in such a way that it virtually guarantees compatibility with every single Surefire there is out there that takes the P60 series lamp assembly. Hence why it's got the dimensions it does.

-Steve

woodrow · Feb 17, 2008

I really do like the wide spill on mine. I do not know that it totally makes up for its not all that bright bluish (compared to all the Q5 lights I have bought) beam, but it does light up a small room pretty well.

I am hoping that the P61L will have an actually good tint and a good chunk more oomph. That being said, the P60 makes a good backup light because of its longer runtime.

BigD64 · Feb 17, 2008

It may not be the throw. The tint of the beam may be why you aren't seeing the spot. Check the beams against a white wall and unless you are using the P61 in the G2 the P60L should be brighter. My P60L's are better than the P60's by quite bit. But .......my Malkoff M60 puts them all to shame.

ampdude · Feb 17, 2008

txgp17 said:
Surefire's 2008 Catalog has a runtime chart on page 47, you're looking at 2.5 hours to 50% capacity.

Was this your first LED?

If you want throw, I suggest a Bug Out Gear drop in. Or if you're on a budget, a SolarForce model off Ebay, they have great throw too.

I think the thing that would make you most happy is a Malkoff Devices M60L, it runs for at least 4.5 hours at 140 lumens. I have a M60LL (two L's) and it runs at 80 lumens for about 9-10 hours. The problem is that Malkoff's stuff is hard to come by.

He's talking about throw sucking more than a P60 (which sucks already) and you bring up runtime. Funny stuff. :devil:

LED people... :ohgeez:

Hehehehe

LukeA · Feb 17, 2008

ampdude said:
He's talking about throw sucking more than a P60 (which sucks already) and you bring up runtime. Funny stuff. :devil:

LED people...

Hehehehe

I too thought this thread was too free of aspersions. :shakehead

(The OP mentioned runtime first)

Gearhead Jim · Feb 17, 2008

Thanks for all the info. If it's not snowing tonight, I'll repeat the test with my 6P and see if the LED module performs better because of better cooling. I had thought the LED would take about a minute to heat up in the plastic bezel of my G2, but informed opinion is running against me.

herolet · Feb 17, 2008

Gearhead Jim said:
52 yards from my back door is a tree line, and a 8" x 16" target that is painted black with natural wood circles of 4" down to 1".

On a typical color temperature chart:

1000 k 3500k 5000k 6500k 10000k
red yellow incan whitesunlight cree led blue

I am no expert by any means, but isn't "natural wood" color much colser to yellow/red than blue? That's probably why.

Your Surefire LED color temperature is very close to 6500k to 7000k while incan is close to 3500k to 4000k I believe.

The "natural wood" color will definitely looks brighter under incan light.

If you change the "natural wood" color to white or even light blue, I think you will get the opposite results.

Click to expand...

yellow · Feb 17, 2008

again that "leds are not good outdoors"-story.

1st, to get some info to the original question:
SF Led inserts are not driven hard (1) and, inside a plastic light, can not get even that small amount of heat produced away - thus have to be dimmend additionnaly (2)
(+ till now there is only a Luxeon inside (3), if I am correct, which is even more dim)
2nd: the output of the 6P normal 50 mins runtime bulb is a joke (now!). F.e. the 18650 Streamlight Scorpion's beam is WAY better
3rd: a Cree/Seoul driven hard at 1 A (and good heatsinked!) in a good reflector stomps even the Scorpion
... and thus IS good outdoors.

PS: I a number of all the lights mentionned and can compare the hardware for myself!

PPS: but, also for sure, You incan guys, who think of an ugly large, ugly heavy, ugly short runtime but superbright ROP, in comparison to that "LEDs are not good outdoors"

, are right: a ROP is bright!

how about stopping to compare these two lights:

and compare two CR123 sized ones, as all the posters are asking for.
There simply is no question that the Led is better, because brighter, more than double the runtime, and being able to be dimmed down without loosing usefulness

Gearhead Jim · Feb 17, 2008

Tonight I repeated my tests, but used a 6P. The better heat sink of the aluminum bezel does seem to make a difference, although the P60 still seems a bit brighter.

It appears that the 60L puts more of its light out in the edges of the beam and sacrifices some brightness in the center. Which one is better will depend on circumstances, generally I prefer the pattern of the P60. But maybe that's because I'm used to it.

Our yard is covered with clean white snow, and there is one patch of snow vertically in a tree at the back. Up close, the 60L seems to produce more brightness and back-glare off of the snow. Looking at the vertical patch in the tree, they seem equal.

After my comparisons, I'm not happy with the color of either lamp- the incandescent seems too yellow, and the LED seems too blue. BTW, I have HID low beam headlights in my car and they don't seem to make the world look nearly as blue like the 60L.

I'll probably leave the LED in my G2 and see if I grow to like it, the extra ounce of a 6P in my pocket is something i want to avoid. Too much stuff in the pockets already...

Nitroz · Feb 17, 2008

This is why it is nice to be able to buy your own LEDs and mod a light as you would like it.

I notice LEDs on the cooler side do not work aswell outside as the warmer colored ones. Not all LEDs have the blue tint to them. I prefer my Cree LEDs to come in WG, which has a buttery yellow tint to them.

txgp17 · Feb 17, 2008

ampdude said:
He's talking about throw sucking more than a P60 (which sucks already) and you bring up runtime. Funny stuff. :devil:

LED people...

Hehehehe

ampdude,
Do you actually read the entire posts, or do you just read the parts you want to?

precisionworks · Feb 17, 2008

I'll repeat the test with my 6P and see if the LED module performs better because of better cooling.

Nonmetallic heads act as an insulator (no rocket science there), but a metallic head held in gloved hands will have a similar effect. NovaTac mentions this in the 120P instructions: If the light is held with a bare hand during operation, the hand will conduct away any excess heat and prevent the light from becoming too hot for normal operation. If the light is placed on a table or held with a gloved hand, the excess heat is not as easily conducted away.

ampdude · Feb 17, 2008

txgp17 said:
ampdude,
Do you actually read the entire posts, or do you just read the parts you want to?

I'm just messin with ya. A blind man could troll the LED forum...:laughing:

Anyways, back on subject. The P61L looks very interesting, though I have some R2 bin drop-ins on order I'll definitely have to check one of these out once they become available.

asdalton · Feb 17, 2008

The Novatac is much smaller than the 6P. It would be difficult to hold a standard 2x123A metal light with a gloved hand in such a way that heat loss would be impeded significantly.

PlayboyJoeShmoe · Feb 17, 2008

<grabs a few lights for a quick test outside>

I live on 3.5 acres of pretty dark land in East Texas. About 100 feet or so out is a dark brown and white building at the end of the pond. At about 175 feet is a gate with a white sign.

P60L will hit those targets. In overall light output P60 will hit them too but no better. DX 1447 Cree module and 4068 SSC module are a bit brighter than P60L but not all THAT much so.

Indeed, a blue tint doesn't show woods and such as well as the yellowish tint or white tint of incan or LED.

This is not absolutely scientific testing mind you. I'm pretty sure the batteries in each light are up to snuff, but not 100% certain.....

edit: I just tried my SL 4AA Lux out there. Either those batteries ain't exactly fresh, or that light isn't as good as I remember....

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