Has anyone put a better, brighter LED in a Novatac

I must first confess that I know nuts about technical specs and the like but 'm just wondering that if the Q5 is the latest in LED technology, at least that's what I know, why hasn't anyone put one in a Novatac yet?

There hasn't been much swapping of LEDs done to a Novatac and I really wonder why. I know of only one person who has swapped out a different LED and reported about 3000 lux more. But the hype died down after a while...

Why are not more people trying to get better performance out of a Novatac???

Am I missing something here???

The Novatac uses a Seoul Semiconductor LED that has a similar output to a Cree Q5, so you couldn't expect a big improvement in output. Additionally, the reflector is not optimized for a Cree, and even with a higher total output the hotspot brightness would likely be less.

The SSC P4 in the Novatac has 100 lm/W whereas the Cree Q5 has 94 lm/W. Hardly a difference at all, and if anything the performance would drop a little bit. I don't understand why everyone is all Cree-crazy when Seoul has been doing R2 performance for about a year now...

Sorry, maybe I should have been a bit clearer... told you I was a tech NOOB....

I wanted to ask why no one has swapped out the LED in teh Novatac for anything better, Q5 notwithstanding?

Or am i right to understand that the LED in the Novatac is the state of the art in terms of brightness and efficiency??

The Cree XR-E Q5 is actually slightly more efficient then the Seoul P4 U-bin, but the Cree has a different emitting angle and would result in a different beam pattern.

The Cree XR-E R2 is probably the most efficient single die high power LED available.

For the same beam pattern, the Seoul P4 is about the maximum you can get in the Novatac.

hi, Tessaiga,

I think you raise a valid and interesting point. I don't have the technical data at my fingertips to refute the claim that the SSC P4 is equivalent to the Q5 in terms of performance, but based on what I see in real world flashlight performance out there, I don't think it's a correct claim. (maybe it can get out similar lumens, but at a much lower runtime)

Maybe we should focus on the more general point you raise, though, which is that with sophisticated and complicated flashlights such as the Novatac, which has more than 20 settings and a programming function, you are essentially locked in with an LED which sooner or later will be overtaken.

So when one is purchasing flashlights, especially premium priced ones (the Novatac 120P is now reaching for a $200 price point, when purchased new!!), they need to consider upgradeability and whether it matters to them.

That may be part of the suddenly very big popularity and interest in 6P flashlight formfactors, which can start pretty cheap (especially when you start with not a Surefire, but a clone) and can be easily modded and upgraded.

Note also that the 6P is a VERY simple (almost primitive!) flashlight base, and all the sophistication must come with the drop-in LED module, or maybe be bundled into the tail cap. So it may be an interesting lesson with general applicability, to be able to upgrade easily, you start simple and cheap, rather than complicated and expensive!

A CPF'r named WHC did this..here's the link:
He didn't use a Q5, but a better Seoul.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/175807

He used a USWOH Seoul emmiter and achieved
a 20% increase in output over a stock Novatac.

I should know, I owned one once. VERY BRIGHT, I was amazed
as to why Novatac didn't use those emmiters in the first place:shrug:

Yes - I followed WHC's procedure for SSC emitter swap on a Liteflux LF-3 and noticed an improvement as well. The Novatac swap looks just as simple and straight forward.

Photonfanatic sells the SSC LED's and you can pick your choice of tint as well. What is not clear is that SSC emitters have been out for a while but there are not new anouncements at the incremental improvements like the Crees. So it may be more luck to get a better emitter.

Tessaiga said:

I know of only one person who has swapped out a different LED.....

Click to expand...

I swapped mine out after reading of whc doing his. His gain was greater than mine because his light untouched showed 6200 lux, my Novatac showed 7500 lux when I got it. After the swap it jumped to 9000 lux.
I just received my new black 120P and it shows 7500 lux also. I suspect Novatac is using T bin Seouls. One light, maybe a fluke, but two in a row makes me wonder.

edit; Well, maybe not T bins, but higher Vf Seouls than what Photonfanatic sells.

I have a Nautilus Cree Q-5 with 107 lumens output for 2.5 - 2.75 hours on high. When I programably set my Novatac 120P to approx 100-110 lumens, the output is much less than 2.5 hours. I think the Nautilus is more efficient, but granted, the Novatac has an incredible UI with 22 programabilty settings.

Does anyone have any info as to the 120P 100 lumen programable setting specific time output?


Regards,

dm

Very interesting Dark Matter. These are some of the comparisons I like to see. If there is a significant difference in runtime I would tend to attribute this more to the design of the regulator and not so much to the difference in emitter efficiencies (although they do contribute). The tradoff with having only two fixed outputs may be that you can have a more efficient regulator design. The tadeoff of the UI with flexibility output adjustability may be that it is not the most efficient regulator.

Actually, based on the numbers published by both companies, the Cree XR-E R2 bin is equally efficient as the SSC P4 U bin, both having 100 lm/w @ 350mA. While the R2 puts out 114 lumens @ 350mA compared to the U bin's 100 lumens @ 350mA, it does so at a higher Vf, thus they both have efficiencies of 100lm/w.

Note that these are just numbers on paper, and I don't really know how they perform at higher currents. Also, there is the whole tint issue, beam patterns, etc. I personally prefer the SSC P4 because its easy to swap into old Luxeon based lights, and it usually has a floodier beam, which I find ideal for LED lights.

Also, I should add that swapping one for the other would hardly change the perceived overall output of the light, as a couple lumens in either direction would barely be noticeable.

Gunner12 said:

The Cree XR-E Q5 is actually slightly more efficient then the Seoul P4 U-bin, but the Cree has a different emitting angle and would result in a different beam pattern.

The Cree XR-E R2 is probably the most efficient single die high power LED available.

For the same beam pattern, the Seoul P4 is about the maximum you can get in the Novatac.

Click to expand...

That 107 lumen output is from the emitter, not out the front of the light. After losses from reflector and the lens, you'll be seeing more like 70ish lumens out the front (using the old 65% formula I saw on CPF awhile ago). Setting the Novatac 120P to the 60 lumen setting will net you about 3 hours on a primary CR123, and about 2 hours with an RCR123, according to this.

Dark Matter said:

I have a Nautilus Cree Q-5 with 107 lumens output for 2.5 - 2.75 hours on high. When I programably set my Novatac 120P to approx 100-110 lumens, the output is much less than 2.5 hours. I think the Nautilus is more efficient, but granted, the Novatac has an incredible UI with 22 programabilty settings.

Does anyone have any info as to the 120P 100 lumen programable setting specific time output?


Regards,

dm

Click to expand...

There was also Milkyspit's "Supernova" mod. I don't recall all the specs, but a search should bring it up.
As for why not do it, here's my list:
Have you seen how nice the beam is on these lights?
Other than being just a hair blue, for the size, I couldn't ask for more from this light!
Great run times as it is.
If you need more than 120lum, you need a bigger light anyway!
Yes, it would be a great wow factor, but how many of those are already out there?

I love this light just the way it is, the beam reminds me of my E2E, I love taking it out of my pocket and blowing away Mags, then I turn it on highoo:
It's a nice, well thought out, USABLE package!

cmaylodm said:

That 107 lumen output is from the emitter, not out the front of the light. After losses from reflector and the lens, you'll be seeing more like 70ish lumens out the front (using the old 65% formula I saw on CPF awhile ago).

Click to expand...

It has been established many times on CPF that the 65% is for INCAN BULBS, not LED's. LED's project their light forward, where bulbs emit in every direction, so more of the bulb lumens are lost than the LED's lumens.

WadeF said:

It has been established many times on CPF that the 65% is for INCAN BULBS, not LED's. LED's project their light forward, where bulbs emit in every direction, so more of the bulb lumens are lost than the LED's lumens.

Click to expand...

And to add - this means that you're dealing with a factor of 70%.

I still use the 65% figure, however. I'd rather still underestimate than overestimate.

-Steve

As for why not do it, here's my list:
Have you seen how nice the beam is on these lights?
Other than being just a hair blue, for the size, I couldn't ask for more from this light!
Great run times as it is.
If you need more than 120lum, you need a bigger light anyway!
Yes, it would be a great wow factor, but how many of those are already out there?

Click to expand...

It's scary, sawlight, how much we think alike

The 120P beam is buttery smooth, just about as good as it gets. Just as nice as a SF L4 with more throw & a little less flood.

He used a USWOH Seoul emmiter and achieved a 20% increase in output over a stock Novatac.

Click to expand...

Which means 144 lumens instead of 120? Most users would not be able to see the difference.

The 120P is a sweet light as it is. Five years from now, when everybody has their 400 lumen single cell lights, there will still be a few people with a 120P in their pocket.

Tessaiga said:

I must first confess that I know nuts about technical specs and the like but 'm just wondering that if the Q5 is the latest in LED technology, at least that's what I know, why hasn't anyone put one in a Novatac yet?

Click to expand...

Probably the law of diminishing returns.

First off there's not a significant difference in the brightness of the top offerings among the manufacturers. At least not to your eyes which operate logarithmically and need something like 4x the light for things to appear twice as bright.

LEDs are far more efficient at low drive levels ( < 40 mA of current) when it comes to converting watts to lumens. They also run much cooler, and have a longer life.

Then there's the fact that without a beefy heatsink a little finger light like the NovaTac is likely going to get nearly to hot to handle quick. And the battery life would not be so good.

Anyway I think 100-120 lumens is amazing from such a small light.

The way I see the high modes on these small lights are more for show or in the case of a real emergency.. otherwise most of the time the light will be used at a lower level.

Don't take this the wrong way. I absolutely love my 120P and it goes just about everywhere with me, it's just that I'm wondering if there's a way to make a great light even better....

I often hear of the old HDS lights being streets ahead of the Novatac and I really wonder how much better do they get than a Novatac... I don't have a HDS to compare so i can't say... but IMHO the Novatac is right up there in terms of durability, toughness and reliability. And the beam is SWEET....

While I wouldn't swap the SSC P4 for a Cree, I do appreciate the beam of my Novatac a lot more now that I have a USVOH emitter in there. It's got a reddish tint, which I like a lot more than the bluish tint it had before.