Views Of Fenix TK10 As A Tactical Tool

This thread was created by moving some posts from this thread. The tangential topic was consuming the basic topic of the thread.

Please keep it civil. It's a volatile topic. - Empath



I didn't create this thread, the first post you see below is a reply to a post in the "Is the TK10 a preconception-buster?" thread.

-Gary3911


...............................................

This is my take, whether you want it or not:

I will not be buying a TK10, and possibly not another Fenix.

I bought a batch of Fenixes for my company field technicians to use at work.

The dealerI bought them from has been prepping me for the TK10, telling me about how wonderful it is etc.

When I bought the Fenixes, all my technicians binned their AA mini M@gs and went crazy over their new LED lights, and they carry them all the time. I, however have never carried a Fenix. Every day (and all of us use our lights daily) I use my 6PL at work.

Now why do I do this, and why have I stated that I will not be buying a TK10? Is it because I am a snob? Is it because I have an irrational hatred of things made in China?

No. And neither am I "prejudiced" as FederalLG puts it. In fact, that is entirely the wrong term to be using in a consumer debate. I do not use a Fenix, and won't buy them because I don't trust them. I own many SFs, and some other assorted lights like Streamlights. I own two lights from Chinese brands (ie the actual brands are Chinese, rather than just the manufacturer). They are an L2D and a Nitecore DI. They are both terrible terrible disappointments to me, although the DI much more than the L2D.

These high-end Chinese-brand lights share one thing to me - they are simply cosmetic copies of existing products that have been made without too much thought to either (1) the actual functions of the features that are being copied and/or (2) the actual reasons for said features. The Nitecore DI is the worst offender in this category - basically it's been designed as the CPF wet dream. AA? No prob. Free lanyard and spares? Got that covered. HAIII? Do it. UI that matches the Novotac? Step this way sir. - They do all this to make it the product that you think you want. This is so transparent in the ridiculous marketing - Edge clearly think that they will sell a lot of lights to people that think that the light will give them some kind of "tactical edge" so they stick on a paracord lanyard, plaster SWAT team members all over the instruction manual and give a keychain light a spiky bezel. Why?

Do they actually think that they are making a light that SWAT team members are going too all start carrying as back-up as they drive around the crack-dens of urban America? Obviously not, as said SWAT team members will be driving around with anything but - probably E1es or SF backups if they have anything at all on their keys, and probably SFs or Blackhawks up top. But isn't this the point? The reason people want to buy the Gladius or the M2 or whatever is that they are apparently utilised by those that necessarily demand high-performance. SF Do not go out and ask CPF what they want in their next light, as that is exactly the space that these Chinese-brands occupy - essentially putting the cart before the horse. It would be like Hummer building vehicles to the specs of musicians and sports stars and then expecting the military to follow. Can you imagine the marines saying "Oh wow - gotta get me one of those Humvees - I mean, J-Lo seems to trust it"

It's totally wrong to even think that "prejudice" is even the correct term to apply here. I mean, is this so ridiculous that we are basically rejecting the entire notion of branding? Are we seriously saying that it is somehow wrong to make consumer decisions on the basis of past experience? If you buy Kellogs cereal and enjoy it, you keep on buying it. That does not give you an irrational hatred of Nestle cereal. If you buy a new Humvee because you have a lot of money and your last one was great - that's fine. But does it make you a racist because you don't want a Toyota Landcruiser?

I am not in the market for a "tactical light" such as the TK10 purports to be, because I don't actually need one. I do not kick down doors at work, or wrestle with crack-heads or point pistols at insurgents. However, if I did do that for a living, I would want a product made by a company that makes lights for people that do kick down doors, wrestle with crack-heads and point pistols at Osama - NOT by the company that makes lights that look like they are for shooters, but have basically been designed by taking an internet poll of a bunch of flashlight geeks, of which only some are shooters.

And that is not prejudice or a preconception. That is a sensible decision based upon reasoning and experience.

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

gary3911 said:

This is my take, whether you want it or not:

I will not be buying a TK10, and possibly not another Fenix.

I bought a batch of Fenixes for my company field technicians to use at work.

The dealerI bought them from has been prepping me for the TK10, telling me about how wonderful it is etc.

When I bought the Fenixes, all my technicians binned their AA mini M@gs and went crazy over their new LED lights, and they carry them all the time. I, however have never carried a Fenix. Every day (and all of us use our lights daily) I use my 6PL at work.

Now why do I do this, and why have I stated that I will not be buying a TK10? Is it because I am a snob? Is it because I have an irrational hatred of things made in China?

No. And neither am I "prejudiced" as FederalLG puts it. In fact, that is entirely the wrong term to be using in a consumer debate. I do not use a Fenix, and won't buy them because I don't trust them. I own many SFs, and some other assorted lights like Streamlights. I own two lights from Chinese brands (ie the actual brands are Chinese, rather than just the manufacturer). They are an L2D and a Nitecore DI. They are both terrible terrible disappointments to me, although the DI much more than the L2D.

These high-end Chinese-brand lights share one thing to me - they are simply cosmetic copies of existing products that have been made without too much thought to either (1) the actual functions of the features that are being copied and/or (2) the actual reasons for said features. The Nitecore DI is the worst offender in this category - basically it's been designed as the CPF wet dream. AA? No prob. Free lanyard and spares? Got that covered. HAIII? Do it. UI that matches the Novotac? Step this way sir. - They do all this to make it the product that you think you want. This is so transparent in the ridiculous marketing - Edge clearly think that they will sell a lot of lights to people that think that the light will give them some kind of "tactical edge" so they stick on a paracord lanyard, plaster SWAT team members all over the instruction manual and give a keychain light a spiky bezel. Why?

Do they actually think that they are making a light that SWAT team members are going too all start carrying as back-up as they drive around the crack-dens of urban America? Obviously not, as said SWAT team members will be driving around with anything but - probably E1es or SF backups if they have anything at all on their keys, and probably SFs or Blackhawks up top. But isn't this the point? The reason people want to buy the Gladius or the M2 or whatever is that they are apparently utilised by those that necessarily demand high-performance. SF Do not go out and ask CPF what they want in their next light, as that is exactly the space that these Chinese-brands occupy - essentially putting the cart before the horse. It would be like Hummer building vehicles to the specs of musicians and sports stars and then expecting the military to follow. Can you imagine the marines saying "Oh wow - gotta get me one of those Humvees - I mean, J-Lo seems to trust it"

It's totally wrong to even think that "prejudice" is even the correct term to apply here. I mean, is this so ridiculous that we are basically rejecting the entire notion of branding? Are we seriously saying that it is somehow wrong to make consumer decisions on the basis of past experience? If you buy Kellogs cereal and enjoy it, you keep on buying it. That does not give you an irrational hatred of Nestle cereal. If you buy a new Humvee because you have a lot of money and your last one was great - that's fine. But does it make you a racist because you don't want a Toyota Landcruiser?

I am not in the market for a "tactical light" such as the TK10 purports to be, because I don't actually need one. I do not kick down doors at work, or wrestle with crack-heads or point pistols at insurgents. However, if I did do that for a living, I would want a product made by a company that makes lights for people that do kick down doors, wrestle with crack-heads and point pistols at Osama - NOT by the company that makes lights that look like they are for shooters, but have basically been designed by taking an internet poll of a bunch of flashlight geeks, of which only some are shooters.

And that is not prejudice or a preconception. That is a sensible decision based upon reasoning and experience.

Click to expand...

very well said!

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

Still, you can have a debate about who has the least bad marketing practice, but nothing has essentially changed.

It still comes down exactly to preconceptions, and rightly so. Lights like the Z2, M2 and Gladius are still lights designed for use by shooters and supplied to shooters. Anyone else that buys them is a bonus for the manufacturer. Lights like the TK10 are essentially mock-ups of tactical lights being sold to the "anyone else" crowd on the back of a non-existant military/LEO consumer base.

In simpler terms, look at clothing. Ok, everyone loves to bash Nike - the absolute vast majority of their sales comes from selling fashion clothing or shoes to people. A much smaller percentage is made up of amateur athletes, smaller still from pro-athletes; and one suspects that elite athletes get paid to use Nike gear, rather than the other way around. The point is that Nike must have at its core the technical products for those elite athletes - be it sprinters or footballers or basketball players. Without that kind of endorsement, Nike would gradually lose credibility over several years.

Take on the other hand a brand like "No Fear". This is a brand that markets itself at an "extreme sports" niche, however the company makes no equipment or technical clothing. It has pretensions of identifying with snowboarders, climbers and skateboarders. However, No Fear does not make skateboards, climbing gear or snowboards - only T-shirts, baseball caps, posters and patches It is essentially a "groupie" brand.

One company has a mass market, but in order to retain that market, it requires its products (or antescendants of those products) to retain a utility for consumers that will require very high performance from those products. The second company also has a mass market, but nothing else, as it is only hanging on the coat-tails of a pre-existing industry.

This is exactly where I place the Chinese brands. They are making no attempt to develop products, but simply to produce mock-ups. No reasonable person could possibly imagine that companies like Fenix or Edge are actually marketing at shooters - if this were the case, they would be developing their products in a totally different manner and not shamelessly copying features from existing products with no rhyme nor reason.

That is my preconception of the Fenix TK10. Until I see high level endorsement from actual Tactical users or harsh-environment users, they have to be considered a very flimsy product.

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

you go ahead and buy your surefires gary3911, have fun!

meanwhile, we all have differing opinions on so "chinese lights" but there is no call for insulting the manufacturors that way. Your technicians all loved thier fenix-es. ever wondered why?

you are bringing up an age old debate thats better left untouched.



Crenshaw

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

gary3911 said:

This is exactly where I place the Chinese brands. They are making no attempt to develop products, but simply to produce mock-ups. No reasonable person could possibly imagine that companies like Fenix or Edge are actually marketing at shooters - if this were the case, they would be developing their products in a totally different manner and not shamelessly copying features from existing products with no rhyme nor reason.

That is my preconception of the Fenix TK10. Until I see high level endorsement from actual Tactical users or harsh-environment users, they have to be considered a very flimsy product.

Click to expand...

I appreciate you saying that its YOUR pre-conception with the Tk10 now continuing an intellectual debate...

On what basis are you saying that these chinese brands are NOT being used in harsh, tactical environments?. Just because the United states armed forces are not using it, does not mean that no one else is. I have no proof of any particular brand being used, but you also cannot prove that no other brand isnt being used. its the Black Raven syllogism.

gary3911 said:

This is my take, whether you want it or not:

I will not be buying a TK10, and possibly not another Fenix.

I bought a batch of Fenixes for my company field technicians to use at work.

The dealerI bought them from has been prepping me for the TK10, telling me about how wonderful it is etc.

When I bought the Fenixes, all my technicians binned their AA mini M@gs and went crazy over their new LED lights, and they carry them all the time. I, however have never carried a Fenix. Every day (and all of us use our lights daily) I use my 6PL at work.

Now why do I do this, and why have I stated that I will not be buying a TK10? Is it because I am a snob? Is it because I have an irrational hatred of things made in China?

No. And neither am I "prejudiced" as FederalLG puts it. In fact, that is entirely the wrong term to be using in a consumer debate. I do not use a Fenix, and won't buy them because I don't trust them. I own many SFs, and some other assorted lights like Streamlights. I own two lights from Chinese brands (ie the actual brands are Chinese, rather than just the manufacturer). They are an L2D and a Nitecore DI. They are both terrible terrible disappointments to me, although the DI much more than the L2D.

These high-end Chinese-brand lights share one thing to me - they are simply cosmetic copies of existing products that have been made without too much thought to either (1) the actual functions of the features that are being copied and/or (2) the actual reasons for said features. The Nitecore DI is the worst offender in this category - basically it's been designed as the CPF wet dream. AA? No prob. Free lanyard and spares? Got that covered. HAIII? Do it. UI that matches the Novotac? Step this way sir. - They do all this to make it the product that you think you want. This is so transparent in the ridiculous marketing - Edge clearly think that they will sell a lot of lights to people that think that the light will give them some kind of "tactical edge" so they stick on a paracord lanyard, plaster SWAT team members all over the instruction manual and give a keychain light a spiky bezel. Why?

Do they actually think that they are making a light that SWAT team members are going too all start carrying as back-up as they drive around the crack-dens of urban America? Obviously not, as said SWAT team members will be driving around with anything but - probably E1es or SF backups if they have anything at all on their keys, and probably SFs or Blackhawks up top. But isn't this the point? The reason people want to buy the Gladius or the M2 or whatever is that they are apparently utilised by those that necessarily demand high-performance. SF Do not go out and ask CPF what they want in their next light, as that is exactly the space that these Chinese-brands occupy - essentially putting the cart before the horse. It would be like Hummer building vehicles to the specs of musicians and sports stars and then expecting the military to follow. Can you imagine the marines saying "Oh wow - gotta get me one of those Humvees - I mean, J-Lo seems to trust it"

It's totally wrong to even think that "prejudice" is even the correct term to apply here. I mean, is this so ridiculous that we are basically rejecting the entire notion of branding? Are we seriously saying that it is somehow wrong to make consumer decisions on the basis of past experience? If you buy Kellogs cereal and enjoy it, you keep on buying it. That does not give you an irrational hatred of Nestle cereal. If you buy a new Humvee because you have a lot of money and your last one was great - that's fine. But does it make you a racist because you don't want a Toyota Landcruiser?

I am not in the market for a "tactical light" such as the TK10 purports to be, because I don't actually need one. I do not kick down doors at work, or wrestle with crack-heads or point pistols at insurgents. However, if I did do that for a living, I would want a product made by a company that makes lights for people that do kick down doors, wrestle with crack-heads and point pistols at Osama - NOT by the company that makes lights that look like they are for shooters, but have basically been designed by taking an internet poll of a bunch of flashlight geeks, of which only some are shooters.

And that is not prejudice or a preconception. That is a sensible decision based upon reasoning and experience.

Click to expand...

Incidently, look at all the LED throwers, Lumapower, Tiablo, DBS, Raidfire are all chinese brands, thats not what i call cloning

Further, would you rather they produce lights that are just raw aluminium?

you say that the NDI was designed like a CPF wet dream, that they are catering to out needs just to sell a light. well, isnt that the point? they designing a light based on what we think shoudl be in a light. the are listening to the consumer. same with the Tk10. I really cant see how this is a bad thing.

I also personally find it very insulting for you to call us all "flashlight geeks". Do you know how many LEOs there are on cpf? of course we are flashlight geeks, but the implication that we dont have the foggiest what we are talking about is insulting.

on the topic of clones, wouldnt you say that the Gladius looks an awful lot like a surefire C2? pentagon lights also look remarkably similar, and have similar features. The thing is, a flashlight cant get very much different, toughest body possible, as much light as possible, reliable as possible. The way i see it, all the manufacturors are trying to get to that.

I also think you are in no position to call a product " terrible terrible disappointment" when you "have never carried a Fenix".And you definetly never carried the Nitecore if you think the User Interface is the same as a Novatac's

please dont take offense, rather please counter my arguements with constructive arguements...

Crenshaw

PS: thanks for the support mike :thumbsup:

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

Crenshaw:

Not carrying a Fenix is not the same as not owning one. The same with the NDI. I own one, but choose not to use it as I have found the one I own to be inherently unreliable. Is that a crime? Are you suggesting that I should carry around a light I have already found to be unreliable for a few more weeks before I am allowed to pass judgement on it?

You can say what you like, but I am not "insulting" manufacturers. I am pointing out home truths. Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that there is anything that makes the TK10 a "tactical" light other than a bunch of badly understood features cobbled together at the behest of a hobbyist market?

The reason I use certain lights is that they come from reputable genuine companies that make genuine tactical heavy-duty lights (which I do not need), but by a trickle down effect their lights should suit my purposes.

What I do not want is lights made by a joke brand that pretend to make tactical lights but have no market for them. There is just no way that TK10s are going to be the next big thing for Law Enforcement or the military, that is pure fantasy.

Now stock incan mini-m*glites are much maligned, and the output was rubbish as was the runtime. But I tell you what, whenever I switched my AA m*glites on, they came on. The same goes for all my SFs. I can't say the same about my Fenixes or my NDI.

Back to the start:

The TK10 cannot yet be a "preconception buster". The only thing that would do that would be several years of spotless reviews and anecdotal evidence of near-perfect operation, along with actual contracts for the usage which they claim. Maybe the US LEO market is a bit out of reach, but I have yet to see any T1s on TV in Tibet. You'd think that possibly Fenix might have started looking to sell in their home market.

Until they can claim big clients and big professional clients, the way some people feel about Fenix (and others) are not "preconceptions" it is wise consumer caution.

The regular Fenix lights - fine. No problem. Pocket lights for various applications with a variety of features. Low cost, very bright and reasonable quality. You can't really ask for more at that price point. But we aren't talking about Fenix as a whole, or about the regular line of lights, we are talking about the TK10, and that is a step too far.

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

gary3911 said:

Crenshaw:

Not carrying a Fenix is not the same as not owning one. The same with the NDI. I own one, but choose not to use it as I have found the one I own to be inherently unreliable. Is that a crime? Are you suggesting that I should carry around a light I have already found to be unreliable for a few more weeks before I am allowed to pass judgement on it?

You can say what you like, but I am not "insulting" manufacturers. I am pointing out home truths. Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that there is anything that makes the TK10 a "tactical" light other than a bunch of badly understood features cobbled together at the behest of a hobbyist market?

The reason I use certain lights is that they come from reputable genuine companies that make genuine tactical heavy-duty lights (which I do not need), but by a trickle down effect their lights should suit my purposes.

What I do not want is lights made by a joke brand that pretend to make tactical lights but have no market for them. There is just no way that TK10s are going to be the next big thing for Law Enforcement or the military, that is pure fantasy.

Now stock incan mini-m*glites are much maligned, and the output was rubbish as was the runtime. But I tell you what, whenever I switched my AA m*glites on, they came on. The same goes for all my SFs. I can't say the same about my Fenixes or my NDI.

Back to the start:

The TK10 cannot yet be a "preconception buster". The only thing that would do that would be several years of spotless reviews and anecdotal evidence of near-perfect operation, along with actual contracts for the usage which they claim. Maybe the US LEO market is a bit out of reach, but I have yet to see any T1s on TV in Tibet. You'd think that possibly Fenix might have started looking to sell in their home market.

Until they can claim big clients and big professional clients, the way some people feel about Fenix (and others) are not "preconceptions" it is wise consumer caution.

The regular Fenix lights - fine. No problem. Pocket lights for various applications with a variety of features. Low cost, very bright and reasonable quality. You can't really ask for more at that price point. But we aren't talking about Fenix as a whole, or about the regular line of lights, we are talking about the TK10, and that is a step too far.

Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from about the unreliable part, but i find it amazing that a whole host of other uses find it reliable then. I have found my NDI reliable, as well as my fenixes, as well as my surefires. I guess YMMV is the way to go here.

okay, so what makes an C2 Centurion a Tactical light then?

if you will look at the review section, already one officer is of the opinion that fenix may soon become a well known brand among LEOs, of course its only one person's opinion there, but can you say with all certainty that LEOs in general will find the Tk10 to be a mere "hobbiest" light?

Fenix and alot of brands are still to new to claim any large market share. why? because majority of these surefire markets think like you, " if no one is using it, im not going to either". No offense meant, but you have to realise that fenix is still a relatively new brand, so are all the chinese brand lights, the only way is up, for them, and i think the Tk10 is a big step in the right direction. again, what makes any of the surefire lights tactical? please do a side by side comparison for me.

"What I do not want is lights made by a joke brand that pretend to make tactical lights but have no market for them. "

calling a brand a joke, sounds like a insult to me. and yet again, how do you know that the chinese army/police force does not use them? again, its the Black Raven syllogism. If i remember correctly, there was an inventory list someone posted that a police department was going to start trying out fenix lights. that was a while back.

Crenshaw

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

gary3911 said:

I will not be buying a TK10, and possibly not another Fenix.

No. And neither am I "prejudiced" as FederalLG puts it. In fact, that is entirely the wrong term to be using in a consumer debate. I do not use a Fenix, and won't buy them because I don't trust them. I own many SFs, and some other assorted lights like Streamlights. I own two lights from Chinese brands (ie the actual brands are Chinese, rather than just the manufacturer). They are an L2D and a Nitecore DI. They are both terrible terrible disappointments to me, although the DI much more than the L2D.

These high-end Chinese-brand lights share one thing to me - they are simply cosmetic copies of existing products that have been made without too much thought to either (1) the actual functions of the features that are being copied and/or (2) the actual reasons for said features. The Nitecore DI is the worst offender in this category - basically it's been designed as the CPF wet dream. AA? No prob. Free lanyard and spares? Got that covered. HAIII? Do it. UI that matches the Novotac? Step this way sir. - They do all this to make it the product that you think you want. This is so transparent in the ridiculous marketing - Edge clearly think that they will sell a lot of lights to people that think that the light will give them some kind of "tactical edge" so they stick on a paracord lanyard, plaster SWAT team members all over the instruction manual and give a keychain light a spiky bezel. Why?

Do they actually think that they are making a light that SWAT team members are going too all start carrying as back-up as they drive around the crack-dens of urban America? Obviously not, as said SWAT team members will be driving around with anything but - probably E1es or SF backups if they have anything at all on their keys, and probably SFs or Blackhawks up top. But isn't this the point? The reason people want to buy the Gladius or the M2 or whatever is that they are apparently utilised by those that necessarily demand high-performance. SF Do not go out and ask CPF what they want in their next light, as that is exactly the space that these Chinese-brands occupy - essentially putting the cart before the horse. It would be like Hummer building vehicles to the specs of musicians and sports stars and then expecting the military to follow. Can you imagine the marines saying "Oh wow - gotta get me one of those Humvees - I mean, J-Lo seems to trust it"

It's totally wrong to even think that "prejudice" is even the correct term to apply here. I mean, is this so ridiculous that we are basically rejecting the entire notion of branding? Are we seriously saying that it is somehow wrong to make consumer decisions on the basis of past experience? If you buy Kellogs cereal and enjoy it, you keep on buying it. That does not give you an irrational hatred of Nestle cereal. If you buy a new Humvee because you have a lot of money and your last one was great - that's fine. But does it make you a racist because you don't want a Toyota Landcruiser?

I am not in the market for a "tactical light" such as the TK10 purports to be, because I don't actually need one. I do not kick down doors at work, or wrestle with crack-heads or point pistols at insurgents. However, if I did do that for a living, I would want a product made by a company that makes lights for people that do kick down doors, wrestle with crack-heads and point pistols at Osama - NOT by the company that makes lights that look like they are for shooters, but have basically been designed by taking an internet poll of a bunch of flashlight geeks, of which only some are shooters.

And that is not prejudice or a preconception. That is a sensible decision based upon reasoning and experience.

Click to expand...

A couple of issues with this:

First; the Nightcore DI doesn't have a UI anything like the Novatac. Second; It would actually be nice if SF but a couple of extra o-rings in the box with their lights.

I agree that they should loose all the tacticool marketing and concentrate on making better threads on their lights.

Sadly I've seen more crap gear used by soldiers and LEOs than I care for. We were also issued a lot of bad gear when I was serving as well. So looking at what soldiers and police officers use might not be the best way to look for quality.

Sverre

PS! it is very hard to come up with something completely new with a tubular shaped flashlight..

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

gary3911 said:

Crenshaw:

Not carrying a Fenix is not the same as not owning one. The same with the NDI. I own one, but choose not to use it as I have found the one I own to be inherently unreliable. Is that a crime? Are you suggesting that I should carry around a light I have already found to be unreliable for a few more weeks before I am allowed to pass judgement on it?

You can say what you like, but I am not "insulting" manufacturers. I am pointing out home truths. Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that there is anything that makes the TK10 a "tactical" light other than a bunch of badly understood features cobbled together at the behest of a hobbyist market?

The reason I use certain lights is that they come from reputable genuine companies that make genuine tactical heavy-duty lights (which I do not need), but by a trickle down effect their lights should suit my purposes.

What I do not want is lights made by a joke brand that pretend to make tactical lights but have no market for them. There is just no way that TK10s are going to be the next big thing for Law Enforcement or the military, that is pure fantasy.

Now stock incan mini-m*glites are much maligned, and the output was rubbish as was the runtime. But I tell you what, whenever I switched my AA m*glites on, they came on. The same goes for all my SFs. I can't say the same about my Fenixes or my NDI.

Back to the start:

The TK10 cannot yet be a "preconception buster". The only thing that would do that would be several years of spotless reviews and anecdotal evidence of near-perfect operation, along with actual contracts for the usage which they claim. Maybe the US LEO market is a bit out of reach, but I have yet to see any T1s on TV in Tibet. You'd think that possibly Fenix might have started looking to sell in their home market.

Until they can claim big clients and big professional clients, the way some people feel about Fenix (and others) are not "preconceptions" it is wise consumer caution.

The regular Fenix lights - fine. No problem. Pocket lights for various applications with a variety of features. Low cost, very bright and reasonable quality. You can't really ask for more at that price point. But we aren't talking about Fenix as a whole, or about the regular line of lights, we are talking about the TK10, and that is a step too far.

Click to expand...

Some of you guys get really duped by surefire and their use of the word and marketing of "tactical" lights. According to your logic you seem to imply that if a certain intity, such as the US armed forces, uses a certain light then that light can be considered a "tactical" light. If that's the case then from my experience those cheap double D lights are the most "tactical" lights of all. When I was in the US armed forces I and many others used those cheap plastic Duracell lights more then once. We used them right along with our weapons from the smalles M9 to our .50 cals and beyod.
If we take your logic even further then baby wipes could also be considered "tactical" since we used them a lot in order to take our "tactical" showers.
By the way the Nitecore DI would be a great "tactical" flashlight to be used in the field. My US Marine Core buddy is very fond of his Fenix L2D and lot of his Marine buddies also want one. His Fenix has seen action in the horn of Africa and beyond.

i don't understand everyone's fascination with what the military or LE uses.....i mean they don't buy it completely due to durability merit, price is the biggest factor....the army adopted ka-bar knives at one time and you won't hear them at the top of most peoples quality knife list(knife people atleast)

Fenix will likely not see any extensive use by U.S. forces because they are made in China.

The U.S. military and law enforcement agencies prefer to buy their equipment from allied nations.

Surefire doesn't compete against Fenix for this market, but Streamlight, Pelican, Mag, First Light and other U.S. companies.

Individual officers/soldiers may buy Fenix if they learn about that company and their lights, but Fenix doesn't have an advertising presence in the U.S. The same goes for all the Chinese flashlight companies.

One of the best tactical lights I have ever had was the SF M3 combat light. I carried a gun back then and I put a lot of rounds through my gun at the range in practice and I bought A LOT of 123a's feeding the M3 with its HO bulb. So I have great respect for Surfire and what it is able to produce in a tactical light.

I do not carry a gun (nor do I miss doing so most of the time) any longer, but when I had the opportunity to pick up a SF L5 for around $100 a while back at a Sportsman's Warehouse clearance sale, I could not justify buying it after comparing it side by side to my Fenix T1.

If you want a 200 lumen 2 stage tactical light (led) light from SF right now, you will have to wait as they do not make one right now. (yes, there are plenty of great drop ins from any number of companies.... but then your light is not a purely SF light)

The Fenix T1 and TK10 have blinding output, impact resistance, forward clicky switches and the new TK10 works with (I am told anyway) any number of shooting grips. So it is a tactical light....period.

I am looking forward to the new $200-$400 Surefire tactical lights coming out. But they are not out yet. I also (after reading about the numerous U2 tailcap problems) will most likely wait a month or two before buying one.

So my main point is while SF is more than capable of making a Class leading, tough as nails, incredibly bright and versatile tactical light that really has no close competition.... I do not see them having one out at this moment.

So in the mean time I will happily use my T1 and grab a TK10 and put start saving for the $200-$400 new Surefire lights.... but not fell under lighted at all if I hear a bump in the night and only have my T1 in my hand next to my pistol.

Thanks Fenix for giving me a great tactical light Now... not just later.

Re: Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

Crenshaw said:

...the are listening to the consumer. same with the Tk10. I really cant see how this is a bad thing.

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If i were to design a tactical flashlight i'd go to the armed forces and ask for input not CPF, otherwise i want a nice EDC CPF would be a big place. Listening to consumers is not a bad thing but here we enter in the special purpose lights and not many people would come up with the ideas they have now.

Crenshaw said:

I also personally find it very insulting for you to call us all "flashlight geeks". Do you know how many LEOs there are on cpf? of course we are flashlight geeks, but the implication that we dont have the foggiest what we are talking about is insulting.

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Everything here is offensive to you. However you never watch your language. I don't know if that adds much to your credibility.

Crenshaw said:

on the topic of clones, wouldnt you say that the Gladius looks an awful lot like a surefire C2? pentagon lights also look remarkably similar, and have similar features. The thing is, a flashlight cant get very much different, toughest body possible, as much light as possible, reliable as possible. The way i see it, all the manufacturors are trying to get to that.

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Well the US manufacturors are using the tactical concept and implement it in the way it should be. Gladius allows 1 hand operation, strobe, programing features, C2 is a light with square acme threads, double o-ring, knurling in a good old fashion way, true HAIII but was surefire the first manufacturer that came out with the tactical grip. Don't know if you own any these lights. However when you have products in the same category products start looking similar just like sports cars they all look alike. The TK10 would fall into the tactical category as a form but it doesn't excel in function we are talking beyond brightness. No 1 hand operation, threads aren't the ones we find in the tactical lights. Matter fact is a fenix L2T with CR123 instead of AA and a tactical grip. We need innovative lights like the Kroma, U2, UA2, even the Gladius.

I have not handled a T1 however what prevents me from getting it is that Fenix is not a Tactical light maker, they have failed on T1 not a solid platform like the C2 with tape switches, shockproof bezels, different tailcaps a lot of compatible accessories. I wouldn't want to carry a Fenix Tk10 in the field and expect to have a emergency tailcap replacement from my buddy as he'd say Fenix what?

I would buy a Fenix if they could somehow implement a 2 stage clicky reliably or a totally revolutionary UI, the reverse clicky is not Tactical. Fenix makes nice lights that has its purpose in the market. However I do not expect Fenix to be leading the light industry. Fenix has already failed miserably on their T1 as the T1 test have shown a light to be Tactical needs to have more than looks, the P3D was tougher than the T1. :shrug:

Crenshaw said:

I also think you are in no position to call a product " terrible terrible disappointment" when you "have never carried a Fenix".And you definetly never carried the Nitecore if you think the User Interface is the same as a Novatac's

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Consumers are entitled to have any opinion about a product that is what we base our purchase, You seem to know a lot about SF M2, C2, Gladius however i have my doubts you own or previously owned any of the lights i mentioned.

Crenshaw said:

please dont take offense, rather please counter my arguements with constructive arguements...

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It's always a pleasure talking to you.

_

I own (amoung others ) a Novatac120P. Did I buy this beause its made in the US of A? No.
Did I but this because its a tactical light? No.

I bought it because its a damn tough light thats small enough to EDC, runs one one battery, is waterproof, shockproof, runs on a small battery, has multiple levels so that if needs be I can run it for a couple of weeks on the one battery, takes rechargables as well as primaries, I can accidentally stick the battery in the wrong way and not cook anything, run it on damn high if needs be, has sos, strobe, locater, auto off etc etc - in short its a damn fine light that I would be happy trusting my life on, more so than my Mag light.

I have had a look at surefire and do not own one, seems to me like they are good lights-but for the price I would like a few more features please, for the price of my Novatac I feel I got a good mix of quality build, good range of features and am more than happy with it.

I tend not to buy Chinese products because of their attitude on Tibet-they invaded and took over despite a signed agreemnet not to...however I still buy the odd Chinese product, and if it breaks I am not too surprised, hoever to state that the chinese are not inovative, well do you own a wheelbarrow? The chinese made the first one...

I can see how it is hard to keep these threads civil. When I read the rantings in gary3911's post above... it is so hard not to jump in with both barrels blazing.

My main comment will be this. Bashing....or saying that any light (you know a tube of aluminum with a button and a end that light comes out of...not a Iphone in technology) is junk and not worth carrying in a tactical situation just because it is not made by a certain USA based company may not be a valid argument.

Back in my gun toting days, it reminded me of all the purists saying that carrying a Glock or HK or Beretta instead of a 1911 was just asking to get yourself killed and using anything other than a .45 would only be useful if being attacked by mice. The argument is as dumb now (and thankfully less subscribed to) as ever. I have used and put many rounds through a 1911. Its the best gun for plate shooting that I have ever used. (when modified with all the trick stuff anyway) But I did not choose to carry one on a daily basis for a # of valid (to myself anyway) reasons.

All a tactical flashlight has to do is reliably light up a target when a button is pressed. Preferably the light allows you to have momentary activation, and is easy to hold in one of many grips next to a pistol. The TK10 does that as well as any Surefire or Gladius light out there right now (led) with much more light if needed.

If you hate that Fenix is making a great light (especially for the money) than look forward to being angry for a while. I believe that in the next four or five years their market share is going to increase exponentially and I congratulate them for it.

I guess you could use any gun then, as long as it shoots straight and can put a decent bullet hole to your opponent the 1911 could be your carry then why go for another one? don't you think the flashlight does more than light up your target? It could be a beacon, Morse Signaling, Spot light, Utility lights, Flood lights even lights that start a fire. I believe the old revolver is just as good as the semi automatic guns available now according to your criteria. I think there is no need for progress.

woodrow said:

I can see how it is hard to keep these threads civil. When I read the rantings in gary3911's post above... it is so hard not to jump in with both barrels blazing.

My main comment will be this. Bashing....or saying that any light (you know a tube of aluminum with a button and a end that light comes out of...not a Iphone in technology) is junk and not worth carrying in a tactical situation just because it is not made by a certain USA based company may not be a valid argument.

Back in my gun toting days, it reminded me of all the purists saying that carrying a Glock or HK or Beretta instead of a 1911 was just asking to get yourself killed and using anything other than a .45 would only be useful if being attacked by mice. The argument is as dumb now (and thankfully less subscribed to) as ever. I have used and put many rounds through a 1911. Its the best gun for plate shooting that I have ever used. (when modified with all the trick stuff anyway) But I did not choose to carry one on a daily basis for a # of valid (to myself anyway) reasons.

All a tactical flashlight has to do is reliably light up a target when a button is pressed. Preferably the light allows you to have momentary activation, and is easy to hold in one of many grips next to a pistol. The TK10 does that as well as any Surefire or Gladius light out there right now (led) with much more light if needed.

If you hate that Fenix is making a great light (especially for the money) than look forward to being angry for a while. I believe that in the next four or five years their market share is going to increase exponentially and I congratulate them for it.

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Lightraven said:

Fenix will likely not see any extensive use by U.S. forces because they are made in China.

The U.S. military and law enforcement agencies prefer to buy their equipment from allied nations.

Surefire doesn't compete against Fenix for this market, but Streamlight, Pelican, Mag, First Light and other U.S. companies.

Individual officers/soldiers may buy Fenix if they learn about that company and their lights, but Fenix doesn't have an advertising presence in the U.S. The same goes for all the Chinese flashlight companies.

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I completely agree. Fenix is likey to be the mall ninja tactical sort of thing, still tactical.

stitch_paradox said:

I completely agree. Fenix is likey to be the mall ninja tactical sort of thing, still tactical.

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That's what Colt, Ruger, and Smith & Wesson said about Beretta.

This garbage was intentionally perpetuated??? :sigh:

The NDI is trash because it's great in all areas except it has a "spikey" bezel and the instruction manual has a SWAT team on it? Give me a break.