Blinding Bright Flashlight?

Thanks for the reply Todd. I'm only looking to get a split second reaction from them, about like throwing sand in the eyes. I accidentally flashed the scorpion in my own eyes and had a very extreme reaction to it. That was good. But then I did the same to my wife...and nothing. She says, "oh yeah that is bright". But never turned her head or anything, whereas I really reflexed away from it. But, as you said, I wasn't expecting it and she certainly was. I'll have to experiment with it more. It may also depend on the proximity to the person as well.

If you know it's coming it really doesn't matter how bright it is, you can just look to the side and squint. But your Scorpion is plenty bright to shine at someone in low light conditions and get a reaction.

But if your looking for true blinding force light you need to start at 225+ lumens like the M4. The M6 at 500 lumens is definatley something you cannot look at!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ToddM:
probably isn't either.


That said, I think the biggest factor in turning someone's head away from a light is the surprize facor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ToddM,

I agree that surprise is perhaps the key factor. OTOH many of us have probably been blinded by someone's high beams while driving to the extent that we were unable to see the road and instinctively turned our eyes right and down in order to escape the direct beam and see at least part of the road.

I'm very surprised that your test subject didn't even have to close his/her eyes or turn away, because that suggests an extraordinary degree of light tolerance. If someone's eyes are dark adapted the pupils are wide open, and a sudden high intensity beam will cause a powerful involuntary reaction, regardless of their degree of preparation. True, it is possible to quickly turn away from that beam before significant "blinding" has occurred, and using peripheral vision, continue to advance in a manner similar to the car analogy. If the light was constantly trained on their face as they came at you, they would be forced to look away or downward, impeding the speed of their advance or at least keep their eyes cast downward.......

D**n it, now you've gotten me curious; I'm going to try this for myself..............
OK, I propped my M6 on top of a tall speaker cabinet and ran at it. You are right, and I was wrong. If you stare into the light you are blinded, but all you need to do is cast your eyes downward and you will clearly see the light peripherally. It is still bright but easily tolerable, and you are able to advance almost as aggressively as before.

Perhaps it is only possible for a light to be a true "non-surprise" force option if its beam is overwhelmingly bright and large enough in diameter to cover the entire periphery of vision. IOW high lumens and high candlepower.

But doesn't that describe your 50 watter? Perhaps some LEO's can weigh in on this with their experiences in the field. Our military is doing advanced work with high energy lasers capable of significant damage to personnel and materiel, and I suspect that portable versions will evolve that will be genuine force option lights, though it is hard to imagine how a handheld military laser could track an adversary's eyes as he moved toward you, especially if he was running erratically and unpredictably.

Any LEO's out there with flashlight force option experience?

Brightnorm

Ok, now that we are talking about blinding people with lights, I have a question. How much, if at all, does staring into a bright light damage your eyesight? (Take for example a headlight, spotlight, or any halogen light - just any bright light.) I mean for like 1-3 seconds to see the brightness factor. Is that ok to do or not safe? When I say damage, I mean the kind that a laser might do to the eyes (burn the retina?).

I am looking for a small flashlight, like the Streamlight Scorpion but much brighter, that would effectively cause someone to blink and move their head if flashed with it. Like a very good distraction. I thought the scorpion would work for this, but although its very bright, and it does hurt the eyes looking at it for long, it does not cause one to have to turn away if flashed.

Any suggestions?

Brian

The scoprion is pretty bright for it's size. I'd rate mine at about 80-90 lumens.

Your other options are a surefire 2 cell light (M2, D2, C2) with a P61 120 lumen bulb but honestly if you don't think the scorpion is enough the 120 lumen bulb option probably isn't either.

You could go to a 3 cell like the D3, C3, and use the 200 lumen P91 bulb. This is a good step up from the scorpion but adds about 1" to the length.

After that things get pretty big in size. A M3 with a 225 lumen bulb, or a M6 with a 500 lumen bulb. A underwater kinetics 6C cell SL6 has a very bright tight beam, but again not small.

That said, I think the biggest factor in turning someone's head away from a light is the surprize factor. If someone really wants to charge you, if all they can see is that light, that's enough, after all your at the end of the light. I played around with this one night, having up to 50 watt spot beam lights shined in a person's eyes that was expecting it and they had no problem going right at the light. It did not force them to close their eyes or turn away. It also did not ruin their night vision for more than a few seconds at best, it was uncomfortable to do. That's much brighter than anything surefire/streamlight/etc. makes. On the other hand every time I've used even lower power lights on friends (ah I love friends, great test subjects) when they are unsupecting they aways close their eyes and turn away. Course that's a non violent person, being completely surprized and unthreatened.

It's one of those reflex things, when people are adjusted to the dark and they get a light in the face the naturally turn away from it. It's like stepping on someone's toe, you step on thier toe and 99% of them the first thing they do is look down. Now if you tell someone "I'm going to step on your toe, don't look down" it's easy for them not to.

I have not yet seen a flashlight that is a true use of force option. If someone is intent on getting to you, no light I've seen will make them stop. What it can do is surprize them enough they rethink things, maybe pause, or ruin their night vision for that few vital seconds you can respond or get away. That's more the surprize factor than the amount of light used. In daylight that's probably a different story if your eyes are daylight adjusted and you get hit with a scoprion it may not bother you much, where a M6 or a larger light may have a better effect. However you'd need a serious light to hurt someone's day vision with a flash of light.

What if the attacker had dark sunglasses on.

When it comes to using a flashlight for self defense, ask yourself this:

Do you feel more secure with a bright E2e or a 4D Mag?

If the cool attacker is stalking you at night, just hold very, very still, and keep your flashlight in your pocket.

Treat your shade-wearing attacker like a T. Rex, and you should be fine.

I appreciate the concern, but there is no way I would consider my flashlight my only line of defense. I have been training in the martial arts and self-defense for over 10 years, and now teach them as well. I also carry a Glock .40.

I was talking with one of my friends who also studies and teaches martial arts, and he mentioned that a police officer he knew had suggested the technique, simply as a way to gain that first second (which is all you need to do any number of things to your attacker). You could also throw something in his face, use mace, or any number of things, but I decided to look into the feasibility of using the flashlight to gain a moment of surprise. All I need is for my attacker to blink or turn his head just slightly, and I feel confident I could bring the threat to an end.

Brian

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by No. 581:

BTW, Brightnorm, that wasn't me with the M6. I don't own one. It's too big to EDC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KT,

Sorry about that inaccuracy. I'll delete it.

Brightnorm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Branley:

....one of my friends ...mentioned that a police officer he knew had suggested the technique, simply as a way to gain that first second (which is all you need to do any number of things to your attacker). You could also throw something in his face, use mace, or any number of things, but I decided to look into the feasibility of using the flashlight to gain a moment of surprise. All I need is for my attacker to blink or turn his head just slightly, and I feel confident I could bring the threat to an end.

Brian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Branley,

This seems to confirm the general opinion that the best self defense function of a bright flashlight is as a "momentary surprise distraction" to be immediately followed by evasive or aggressive action. Any expectations beyond that would be unrealistic and dangerous.

Brightnorm

Agreed. Now the only question is, which flashlight would best do that job?

Brian

Well, I've been trying it all weeks on friends with a borrowed Scorpion, and I can say that so far, I haven't had one person even flinch. They look at the light for a few seconds then say, "wow that's a bright light", and then slightly avert their eyes. And those situations were all surprises, so I feel safe in ditching the idea.

Again, not something I would use, do to my experience, but, I wanted to see if I could recommend it for less experienced folk, like some of the women in my class, but obviously I won't be recommending it.

But I must say, I'm buying one of these flashlights, so I'm glad I went through the excercise. I can't believe how much brighter this little scorpion is than my 4 cell mag lite. It's incredible.

Brian

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Branley:
.....so far, I haven't had one person even flinch. They look at the light for a few seconds then say, "wow that's a bright light", and then slightly avert their eyes.
.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But isn't that the idea? To briefly capture their attention, eyes averted or not, and then either evade or attack?

Brightnorm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
But isn't that the idea? To briefly capture their attention, eyes averted or not, and then either evade or attack?

Just out of curiosity, would you mind describing the circimstances of your "experiment": distance to subject, ambient lighting, frontal beam or other, catching them completely unawares, etc. I know it may seem like nit picking detail but I would find the info useful.

Thanks,

Brightnorm

Brightnorm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proximity has been on average about 4-5 feet. I tried to hit them right between the eyes. In one case of the 4 cases I tried so far, the person knew what I was doing, in the other they were surprised.In 1 case there was overhead flourescent lighting, and in the other 3 there was your typical house lamp lighting. Not dark, but not bright in any case. I never got a blink of the eye, a movement of the head away, a raising of the hands, nothing that would indicate to me even a momentary distraction.

Comments were, "wow that's bright", and, "if I stared at that too long it might hurt."

Brian

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Branley:
Proximity has been on average about 4-5 feet. I tried to hit them right between the eyes. In one case of the 4 cases I tried so far, the person knew what I was doing, in the other they were surprised.In 1 case there was overhead flourescent lighting, and in the other 3 there was your typical house lamp lighting. Not dark, but not bright in any case. I never got a blink of the eye, a movement of the head away, a raising of the hands, nothing that would indicate to me even a momentary distraction.

Comments were, "wow that's bright", and, "if I stared at that too long it might hurt."

Brian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian,

I just tried that with a friend this evening around 10PM on a fairly well lit sidewalk in the large city where I live. I didn't feel comfortable using the light in a "surprise attack" so I told him exactly what I was going to do and got his permission. I told him to try not to close his eyes or turn away. I used a TACM III with a good lamp and fresh Surefires at a distance of five feet.

Results: his eyes closed uncontrollably but he kept his head still. I asked if that reaction was a genuine response to the brilliance of the light or a semi-conscious protective reaction. He said he wasn't sure. I repeated the action and told him that no permanent damage would occur with a very short exposure. He was determined to keep his eyes open at least for a second or two. Result: the same. This time he said it was definitely the brilliance of the light that was painful or disturbing enough that his eyes involuntarily closed.

Admittedly, I only had one test subject, and he may have had unusually sensitive eyes. Your test is actually more convincing because of the multiple subjects. OTOH, your subjects eyes were not as dark-adapted as mine. I must say that am very surprised that your "involuntary" subjects had literally no reaction. That is remarkable, unless you were a fair distance from them.

Unfortunately I didn't have my Scorpion with me for comparison, but as I later demonstrated to my friend, a properly functioning TACM III with a good lamp and fresh 123's will cast a surprisingly powerful beam. I aimed it at the top of a twelve story building across the street. The TACM illuminated the 12th Floor wall and window, not brightly but brilliantly. That is a throw of at least 120' and the window was lit up so brightly that a couple next to us exclaimed something like "Jeez, look at the spotlight" or words to that effect.

I think the Scorpion is a fine light, possibly the best buy of all the 2x123's, but it could't even begin to approach this kind of performance, as I have verified several times in the past.

The TACM's beam, aimed at a dark adapted subject from a distance of five feet on a reasonably well lit but still dark city street, has extraordinary power. I believe that if you try the experiment again staying within the above parameters, you might get a different result.

My EDC "mini superlight" is either the ASP Taclite/triad Model 1 (internal focus, carefully "stopped down" to minimum diameter) or thae TACM III. I am always careful to have fresh or barely used batteries (3.10-3.26v), clean contacts and relatively fresh lamps.

Please let me know if you redo the experiment.

Brightnorm

Thanks for the info, Brightnorm. I do intend on continuing the study. Right now, I'm waiting to hear from the original LEO who suggested the technique, to see which flashlights he has observed it working with. To me the Scorpion is amazingly bright, but, this is the first real flashlight I've ever used. Before now, I just used your standard maglite types.

Perhaps with a more powerful beam it would work. Perhaps its the focus of the beam, the placement of the beam, etc. I'll also be showing the flashlight to my friend who first told me about the idea (after talking with the LEO). He said the light was flashed in his eyes and it was so bright he slightly turned his head and raised his hand.

I'll let you know what I find out.

The Laser Dazzler is more in line with what you're thinking of, though it's probably going to be a controlled item.