New to Li-Ion

I am pretty new to the flashlight world and pretty new to the Li-Ion world as well.

I have read about some batteries having a memory effect (Ni-Cd I think) Do Li-Ions suffer from that as well? I would assume not since everybody seems to be using them.

Another big question is:

Say the batteries are at like 75%. If I put them on the charger over night will it hurt them in any way? Do most chargers have a sort of trickle charge feature? I know with my cell phone/laptop/mp3 player, I plug them in at night and leave 'em there all night, but I have heard about situations where it is a BAD IDEA to leave them charging. I know I have read things before about taking the batteries off as soon as they are done charging.


Thanks for any help

all things return to a state of enthropy , some day your lithium-ion battery will be dirt again the chemicals of most rechargable batteries will eventually become less vibrant when parked and athropy takes over.

I find that the voltage depression which can seem like the much talked about memory effect is relative to the self discharge charachteristics of the chemicals used to make the battery.
sooo
the li-ion has the least problem with voltage depressions from uncycled chemicals. it has less problems because it stays in its powered state better.

any device that your continually using, randomly charging , shouldnt be able to display any specific location that a voltage depression magically appears as noticable ("memory effect").

WTF , ok in engrish, use it or lose it, if you discharge the li-ion cells down to thier within spec low, then immediataly recharge it, once every 6 Months, that would be More than sufficient. the rest of the time, any topping off will work just fine.

then add to that, the li-ion cell will live a bit longer if it isnt 100% charged all the time, so also dont worry about charging it to 100% all the time. especially for small battery devices like cell phones and PDAs which will charge a li-ion to a very high spec sometimes to gain capacity.

so for example, when we get a new fresh (protected) cell in, we will cycle it 2 times, IN USE, meaning just use the device till it reads low battery, recharge it immediataly, then every 6-12 months do the same thing once. the rest of the time, we just USE it, and charge it fully if the NEED for a full charge will exist, and ignore it fully when i know it is charged enough.

this could also bring up 50-50% pulse charging, which can do a reviving of old cells, and have a cell last longer, but that is a bit more complex and lesser known.

all of that would be WRONG totally, if you discharge the battery TO FAR, or Leave it discharged to far, as the li-ion cells will die completly when discharged to low. so if you depleate the cell to low battery indication complete shut off, then it would be good to recharge it, not leave it there for days on end. (cell phones and pdas Continue to use power after shutoff, to maintain memory)

if there was some perfect location, it would be to somehow have the battery at 50% all of the time, and that is about as practical as having 1/2 the battery in it to begin with

as far as trickle charging, most li-ion charging alogrythms end at a set voltage, completly different charging, than ni-?? charging. they terminate at a set voltage and stop charging altogether, or can possibly just keep that set voltage up (easy to do with little self discharge).
that is completly different than the topping alogrythm used for ni-?? or even a float for a lead acid, because it can sit on the charger for days, and not put any more power into the battery.
so the only concideration for "leaving it on charge" endlessly is , that they battery will live a bit longer if its "stored" at a slightly lower state (<100%).

so just like everyone has already been doing, you can mostly just use the thing any way you want to, and it will do what it is intended to do. and the more normal your use is, the more it will normally act the way they intended it to normally. Because normally people get low in battery every 6-12 months without any effort, and they use normal chargers that keep it within spec, and they normally wouldnt leave it drained to nothin, and normally wouldnt have it 100% charged.
so it couldnt be easier just use it normal, then ignore the rest of my post

None of the above applies to SERIES cells, like say Laptop batteries, which could have much more issues with a deep discharge , cause there is more than one battery there, charging in series (balance issues and all). And if using unprotected cells, the user would have to stay within specs. cells and pdas usually have protected cells in them.

In a perfect world I would simply tell you to buy some protected cells and a $10 charger and go have fun...

Unfortunately...

Like Vidpro said, provided the charger is smart, and the cells or the device is smart, you just use em and don't think about it... but working with loose li-ion cells often puts more responsibility on the user simply because the products available to the consumer for use with loose cells are, sub-par. You can get by with a cheap charger, but almost all of the cheap chargers out there do not use the proper charge termination method, they almost all "leak" a trickle charge after the charge is supposed to be terminated, the result is that falling asleep with your cells, (even protected ones) on the charger, will result in cells that have been slowly pushed as high as 4.3V give or take, which is very unhealthy for the cells. I use a cheap charger because I'm cheap, (read: broke), which means I have inadvertently overcharged cells a few times, but most of the time I charge while I am awake on my days off so I can keep an eye on it.

If you want to be able to use the cells, without worry, without waking up in the middle of the night wondering if you pulled them off the charger and if the house is going to burn down (highly unlikely but possible on a cheap charger)... get a Pila ICB charger, their about $50, but it's about the only cradle style charger I am aware of for loose li-ion cells that actually terminates the charge completely. The next best options IMO is to use a WF-139 but put it on a timer of sorts to kill the power to the charger after some number of hours (estimated time till charge completes plus an hour would be fine).

thanks for your help...

I was at Fry's the other day and saw this UltraLast set of 3V RCR123's. $22 for two batteries and a charger seems like a good deal to me. I know there are better batteries and chargers out there but I like being able to buy it at an actual brick-and-morter store.

only thing is, I can't tell if they are protected or unprotected. Any idea?

With no indications of chemistry type, it's hard to say what they even are. LiCo02 would need to be protected and voltage bucked to have both a 3V label and be suitable for sale to consumers. It could also be a LiFeP04 cell with no protection, but LiFeP04 does not require protection as it is not really dangerous (no more than NIMH/NICD etc).

What cells you buy should be based on what devices you intend to use them in. Just randomly buying some RCR123 cells may not do you any good... Some flashlights and devices will only work, or will work best with certain cells.

I was planning on using them in my main light. SF 6P with Dereelight 1SM2 Cree Q5 drop-in. The sticker on the drop-in says "Input Voltage: 3V-16V" I would assume they would work fine. I'm really just looking for a cheap way to get around the cost of buying primary 123's.

I figured 3V cells would be good to have because I could use them in other lights as well.

Unfortunately, just because they say "3.0V" on the label, does not mean they are 3V cells. In fact, most 3V labeled rechargeable li-ion cells deliver around 3.2V into a load, which is fine and dandy for LED modules with wide input ranges, but can be deadly to more sensitive direct drive lights, like most incandescent bulbs. The other issue, is that if they are protected LiCo02 cells with buck regulators, then they may not work at all as the current draw of the module may be higher than the limit set on the PCB.

If your module can handle up to 16V (I was not aware of any DereeLight modules that were designed for this high of an input voltage, so you might want to get confirmation on that)... You will be better off with a pair of 3.7V RCR123s from AW. His cells are protected, and will probably deliver more usable power than the those 3V cells you mentioned.

here is the spec sheet stuff on them
http://www.nabcorp.com/products/ultra.php
seems to be an actual li-ion (vrses li-fe), probably regulated, IF its regulated, you would not want to MIX that battery or charger with other battery charger items, because the regulated cells use a specific charger.

i cant get to the PDFs there, so . . .

and yes what MDOCOD said, china doesnt give a rats backside that your house burns down :mecry: , so getting a good idea of what you have, how it works, keeping it safe , what its specs are, and having a good product , is important.

This was the label on the drop-in...

yea, just get a pair of AW 3.7V 750mAH cells for that and a WF-138 or 139 or DSD or something. Use a multi-meter to make sure voltages are within range going on and coming off charger (3.0-4.2V is the range things should be kept in)...Make sure to pull cells off the charger when the charge is finished, leaving them on can overcharge them. If you can afford the Pila ICB charger I would highly recommend it.

Another option for charging is to get a hobby charger. There was a nice discussion of them made in this thread. I'm seriously toying with the idea of getting one instead of a Pila IBC.

It would be a good idea to really study up on the specs, behaviors, charging algorithms and rates, etc if you go that route. The geek factor is what's drawing me to them. I like buttons and menus

That option may be more time and work (and money) than you're willing to invest, but most hobby chargers make nice all-around workhorses. You can get all your Li-Ion, NiMH, Ni-Cad, and even LifePO4 charging needs in one box.