A better world with religion or without?

brightnorm

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There are now 4000 of us, a remarkably diverse group from many states, countries, professions, religions, races, ages, and most other categories people use to define themselves; all bound together by our strange but rewarding fascination with light.

Most of us belong to, are members of, or are in some way affiliated with the major religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and others, though some of us are not.

MAJOR RELIGIONS RANKED BY SIZE

The question of this post is asked not from a religious viewpoint, nor from an atheistic one, but from the perspective of what you know and have learned about people from personal experience, the experience of others and the lessons of history. It is really a question about human nature.

Clearly, religious orthodoxy is no guarantee of noble behavior, just as atheism does not ensure ignoble acts; but most of us mean Monotheism when we speak of belief or non-belief, forgetting that religion has existed for many thousands of years in different guises, whether sun worship, Animism, totemism, polytheism, or many other isms that are considered "pagan" or mere "superstitions".

Monotheism predominates in today's world, but is that because of its mass appeal, or the violent proselytizing of its adherents?

What if the world had never learned about God as understood by modern monotheism? What if Judaism, Christianity, Islam and other religions had never arisen, would there perhaps be millennia of global terror and mayhem from which we were spared because of our belief in one God, or has that very belief caused the mass butcheries of the modern era?

Here's a brief comment by Hindu writer Gopal Saraswat:

"The monotheism of Semitic religions is bound to lead to strife, and it's history is proof that it does. If you believe that there is only one god, the very fact that someone else believes in a different god is going to offend you, because it will strike you as a direct challenge to your own belief. Polytheists, on the other hand, have no reason to be offended if someone else worships a different god. Since they believe that there are many gods, they respect even those gods whom they themselves do not worship. Hinduism explicitly states that all sincere paths to salvation will bear fruit"

(Anyone with a good historical memory and a keen understanding of the Monotheistic/Polytheistic debate over Hinduism care to explain that issue?)

At any rate, this whole subject was on my mind after an intense religious discussion/argument with my girlfriend, who was brought up as a radically orthodox Christian who later rebelled against a forcefully imposed dogma. BTW, neither she nor I are Polytheists!

So, are we better off with contemporary monotheism, or without?

Brightnorm
 

Monsters_Inc

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"What if the world had never learned about God as understood by modern monotheism"

That statement asserts the existence of God in the first place. Some would argue that God is/was(?) a created entity, that the human mind is too complex that it had to make sense of things it could not comprehend, blah,.... but this gets all philosophical about the underlying reasonings for needing a deity.

However for the mono/poly-theistic debate, I'll add that 'God' translated out of hebrew implies plurality.
 

Silviron

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Mai Gott reserven wir vom pseudointellektueller und sanctimonious schwarz und weiß überlagert achat quarz.
 

FalconFX

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You have to remember that religion 500, 1000, or 2500 years ago is a whole lot different than religion is today. Whether it's tolerance towards different sects or it's a tossed salad blend between different people, the association with a religion is less necessary as it was maybe only 300 years ago. And you have to remember that certain areas of the world view religion entirely differently. The US sees religous beliefs entirely different from, say Tanzania, China or Iran.

Religion has brought out the greatest achievements in humans, as well as the greatest tragedies. Cities have literally risen from the sands in the name of gods, and wars of historic proportions were brought on by religion. In that aspect, although the world may or may not necessarily be better off with or without religion, you certainly can't deny that it's played a great role in shaping humans. And on that note, I think even with all the conflicts as a direct result of religious beliefs, the world is ultimately better with religion.
 

beemerphile

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I have little appreciation for religion, but all possible appreciation of spirituality. The Pharisees were religious. The priest who passed by the stricken Samaritan on the other side of the road was religious. Money-grubbing TV evangelists whose wives have pink hair are religious. Klan members are religious. Religion has not contributed to the betterment of anything except architecture. Not worth keeping it for. Spirituality affords hope to a dying world. - Lee
 

MichiganMan

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Two thoughts,

One, it should not surprise people that the fiercest wars have been fought with religious belief as a real or ostensible motive. Religion deals with the fate of your eternal soul, what could be more serious and worth killing over?

Two, lacking Religion, people being people would find other motivations for war. Its not that as a species we seek war, its that the nature of human beings is that we seek significance and once we find it, be it religion, ethnic pride, regional (current or origin), financial, political, or any of dozens of others we could name, we cling to it and it gains in importance until some are willing to kill for it. Since Religion has met the need for so long, its hard for us to imagine a world where something else could possibly lead to so much historical bloodshed but its there, ie. look at the arson, bombings and assorted other dangerous activities by extreme environmentalists. Look at the abortion debate. I would argue that since abortion foes (myself included) believe that the fetus is a human being that is being killed, strong motivation can be found be those that seek it to justify extreme measures to "stop the killing of helpless babies". Hence, extreme views would still form even in the abscence of religion, only they may not be tempered by the pacifistic teachings of Jesus and other religous leaders.

Perhaps we should be thankful that what has filled our need for significance has served as a positive force for the betterment of humanity more often than not as opposed to many of the others that could be obsessing our collective psyches.
 

darkgear.com

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[ QUOTE ]
What if the world had never learned about God as understood by modern monotheism?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can come to the conclusion of Monotheism from just science and logic.

There are five proofs. The first is enough to comtemplate for a life time. From the Summa Theologica...

The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.


To answer the topic, religion is the only place you find absolute morality. With out it you find only relative morality with leads to anarchy for relativism has no bounds.

Best regards,
Randy
 

Brotherscrim

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[ QUOTE ]
darkgear.com said:
To answer the topic, religion is the only place you find absolute morality. With out it you find only relative morality with leads to anarchy for relativism has no bounds.

Best regards,
Randy

[/ QUOTE ]

I respectfully disagree. I'd get into your first point - the "first cause" argument for a creator - but I've tried that on this board before, and I'm not looking forward to doing it again.

But on your statement above about morality, I would like to answer that. Determining right or wrong in the abscence of God is not so difficult. It's a question of social cohesion. I suppose that if humans all lived seperately, then morals would indeed be relative. But since we form societies, then morals are created by the group. There's a reason why cultures from around the world and all religions (to my knowledge) throughout history have (for instance) all pretty much agreed that incest is wrong. It's bad for society. Same with stealing, (almost always) adultery, murder, etc. These things just can't go on unpunished in a society, without social order being compromised.

That said, if any of you are honestly stopping yourselves from doing the above or similar activities based solely on your faith in a creator - I implore you maintain your faith!

As to the Topic of this thread, I think religion - especially monotheistic religion - was absolutely vital to the success of man and his mastery of the world around him. Now there's something I bet you never thought an athiest would say, huh? Now, what purpose monotheism - or religion at all - will serve in the future, I am unsure, but I will not blame religous belief for the world's ills. Well, all of them anyway.
 

treek13

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[ QUOTE ]
Silviron said:
Mai Gott reserven wir vom pseudointellektueller und sanctimonious schwarz und weiß überlagert achat quarz.

[/ QUOTE ]

"May God reserves we of pseudomore intellectual and sanctimonious black and white overlays agate quartz."

Somehow I think that something is being lost in the Babel Fish translation.

Pat

*Edit: Ah, just spotted Onyx's sig line and now I have a bit better understanding of both why this was posted and I think of what it is saying. Sorry, I normally don't read sig lines. Still the Babel Fish is letting me down.
 

agent8698

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[ QUOTE ]
Onyx said:
--------------------
Mai Gott segnen alle irakischen Truppen, die ihr Land gegen die schlechten Eindringlinge verteidigen


[/ QUOTE ]

Correction and translation of Onyx' signature line for those who don't speak German (I lived in Germany for 17 years):

"Möge Gott alle irakischen Truppen segnen, die ihr Land gegen die schlechten Eindringlinge verteidigen."

Translation: "May God bless all Iraqi troops who defend their country against the bad invaders."

Max
 

treek13

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Hi Max,

Would you mind helping me with Silviron's statement too? My German is worse than the Babel Fish translation. The main thing I know is "Ich verstehe nicht", which I need way too often. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Pat
 

agent8698

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[ QUOTE ]
Silviron said:
Mai Gott reserven wir vom pseudointellektueller und sanctimonious schwarz und weiß überlagert achat quarz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Pat, the above statement is incoherent in grammar and vocabulary. The best I can get out of it is to translate it word by word, which would lead to something like this:

"May God reserve us from pseudointellectual and sanctimonious black and white overlayed achat quartz."

Max
 

Silviron

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I actually know maybe five words of German and can't remember what four of them are. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

First of all, my statement is supposed to be somewhat obscure; requiring a fairly good knowledge of mineralogy / gemology to get it.

Blame the rest on Babelfish- It was unable to translate some of the words that would have made it more grammatical.

Max is about right on with the words I used though- I meant save instead of reserve, and layered rather than overlayed but either works in intended context, and bablefish will translate "achat" properly if you enter it alone.

You would still have to know a bit of mineralogy/gemology get the exact point.

Sorry about dragging this thread further off topic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

tkl

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[ QUOTE ]
agent8698 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Onyx said:
--------------------
Mai Gott segnen alle irakischen Truppen, die ihr Land gegen die schlechten Eindringlinge verteidigen


[/ QUOTE ]

Correction and translation of Onyx' signature line for those who don't speak German (I lived in Germany for 17 years):

"Möge Gott alle irakischen Truppen segnen, die ihr Land gegen die schlechten Eindringlinge verteidigen."

Translation: "May God bless all Iraqi troops who defend their country against the bad invaders."

Max

[/ QUOTE ]

would 5000lb daisy cutters qualify as "blessings"? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif
 

treek13

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Well,

I hope I have caused no problems with this whole mess. After seeing Onyx's sig., I guessed at the meaning of Silviron's statement (which initially I saw completely out of context and related to the wrong thing) and I just figured I would double check since someone with German skills was available.

Quick message to Silviron: Kudos to you for your restraint.

Quick message to Onyx: I just question your judgement on using that for your signature. You are certainly allowed your opinions but that really doesn't seem like a good way/place to convey them unless your point is simply to **** people off. If your goal is to change anyone's mind, I doubt that approach will work. If your goal is simply to express your opinion, it might be better to start a thread instead of bringing it into every thread you post in.

Brightnorm: Sorry about my role in bringing this completely off topic. I will try to figuratively shut my trap now as it were.

Just my humble opinions,
Pat

PS - I forgot to say thanks to Max, so thanks Max.
 

BuddTX

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brightnorm,

One could probably write volumes on this, but, here is my consice viewpoint.

People would find some sort of spirituality, whether it envolved God or Nature or just Peace with one's self.

Where did we come from?
What happens when we die?
How were we created?
How was the universe created?
How were the laws of the universe were created?
Will the Ultimate EDC flashlight ever be invented?

Overall, Society is better off with religion, even the ones that we choose not to affiliate with. NOT CULTS, but religion.
 

Charles Bradshaw

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From my own looking at Organized Religions, whether monotheist or Polytheist, I have found that they are primarly interested in the ABSOLUTE control of the masses. They do this via Fear, Terror, and Hate. In monotheist terms, these are easily stated as:

Fear GOD!!
Terror of Burning in Hell
GOD is Against _____!!

The last of the 3 above has at the top of the list: Homosexuals, followed by ALL other religions, then by other spiritual practices, then everything else the Religion has decreed to be Evil (of which, most is competition that hasn't bought a load of BS, but, is not necessarily Evil).

In Hebrew, Elohim IS plural "Gods." El is Singular "God."
In the Ten Commandments, the the Original states "Thou Shalt NOT put other gods before me." Note that it does NOT say that the other gods are FALSE!!!!!!!!

Jesus was NOT a Religious leader "Do not worship me. Worship my Father." He was a Spiritual Leader: World Teacher and Avatara (Bringer of The Word, Shower of The Way). The Religion called Christianity, is NOT what Jesus actually Taught. It is a Religion ABOUT Jesus, and it only exists, because the Roman Empire failed to exterminate the REAL Christians: Those who followed and practiced what Jesus actually Taught - How to Connect to GOD for yourself. The first thing the Organized Religion did, was to throw out all that would make people Spiritually FREE, then begin a campaign to exterminate all those that practiced such.

Contrary to Judaism's claims, it is NOT the original religion. It is a hodgepodge from several religions in ancient Babylon.

Generally, Polytheist systems are more tolerant, but not always so.

Am I on the warpath here?? No, but I need to say something. Am I Evil and all that?? Many here will certainly believe that I am.

Btw, Jesus had no problems with the polytheist religion of Rome, but, he DID have a huge problem with Rabbinical Judaism (the Organized religion of Judaism).

The Nephilim (those who were Cast Out of Heaven) still run things on Earth (for now).
 

BuddTX

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[ QUOTE ]
Charles Bradshaw said:
From my own looking at Organized Religions, whether monotheist or Polytheist, . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't see anything worth debating about here! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
 
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