300lumens from 2x CRC123's, When?

What will it take to finally see 300 lumens from a 2x CRC123 flashlight? Right now I feel as though there are plenty ot flashlights offering low 200 lumen output on high and I want more! I don't want to buy more and more of the same output in a different wrapper, I want honest brighter lights.
Is the technology to accomplish this so difficult and far off, or is the industry dragging it's feet hoping to sell us a bit at a time?

They are already in design and pre-order. Single 18650 (about the size of 2xCR123) already produces more with P7's, P60 dropins are right up near 300 now, the Surefire Invictus is coming out this year.

Frankiarmz said:

Is the technology to accomplish this so difficult and far off, or is the industry dragging it's feet hoping to sell us a bit at a time?

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I don't think you know enough about the flashlight industry to be making implications like that. Do you know how long ago it was that we were using 3W Luxeons putting out 80lm or less? It was only like 2 years ago! Now we have an LED capable of putting out over 700lm. That's a 10x increase in only a couple of years.

The way I look it it, it's not the LED's industry that's dragging it's feet, we went from LuxIII to P7's with about 6 more LED's in between from various manufacturers in a very short time span, but when was the last time a new type of battery capable of higher energy densities was created?

Build your own.
You can with a couple of d cell Nimh cells and a Mag host toss in a P7 to the mix and you can acheive a brightness well beyond anything that is available in the mass market. all for about $50.00 Besides Brighter lights produce more heat more heat requires a larger flashlight and more aluminum to move it. With current technology we are comming close to the limits of first the ability for small cells to produce the current required and the hosts ability to move heat. These factors are important.
more light more heat more current ....meed a larger flashlight.
Like I said make one your self it is fun and easy. Oh and the results are AMAZING.
Yaesumofo

Supernam said:

I don't think you know enough about the flashlight industry to be making implications like that. Do you know how long ago it was that we were using 3W Luxeons putting out 80lm or less? It was only like 2 years ago! Now we have an LED capable of putting out over 700lm. That's a 10x increase in only a couple of years.

The way I look it it, it's not the LED's industry that's dragging it's feet, we went from LuxIII to P7's with about 6 more LED's in between from various manufacturers in a very short time span, but when was the last time a new type of battery capable of higher energy densities was created?

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Like lithium nanophosphate? I know it's not viable yet, but it certainly is promising.

I think we're almost there, just sit back and enjoy the technology as it evolves.

I wonder if Cree would ever consider a design like the P7. Multiple R2 or Q5 phosphor elements under a single dome doesn't seem too far fetched.

kramer5150 said:

I think we're almost there, just sit back and enjoy the technology as it evolves.

I wonder if Cree would ever consider a design like the P7. Multiple R2 or Q5 phosphor elements under a single dome doesn't seem too far fetched.

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Last I heard a 4-die Cree was well into development.

Marduke said:

Last I heard a 4-die Cree was well into development.

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The surefire UB2 will do the trick but is not due until Q4.

kramer5150 said:

I think we're almost there, just sit back and enjoy the technology as it evolves.

I wonder if Cree would ever consider a design like the P7. Multiple R2 or Q5 phosphor elements under a single dome doesn't seem too far fetched.

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Or even four of those itty bitty Rebel emitters on a single die. Sounds like a prescription for plenty of light and good throw from a smaller reflector.

LogicLED said:

The surefire UB2 will do the trick but is not due until Q4.

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Well, sure - for $99,999 it should do the trick.

http://batteryjunction.com/ub2-bk-wh-invictus.html

LogicLED said:

The surefire UB2 will do the trick but is not due until Q4.

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Just read the specs at Batteryjunction, they had me at "400 lumens"! Now this is what I call upping the ante. Once this light hits the marketplace other will follow for sure. I wonder how they will achieve that kind of output? Once again, if this flashlight is due in Q 4 manufacturers are dragging their feet selling the same old thing in different shapes in the meanwhile!

Frankiarmz said:

Just read the specs at Batteryjunction, they had me at "400 lumens"! Now this is what I call upping the ante. Once this light hits the marketplace other will follow for sure. I wonder how they will achieve that kind of output? Once again, if this flashlight is due in Q 4 manufacturers are dragging their feet selling the same old thing in different shapes in the meanwhile!

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While I look forward to most likely purchasing the SF light, if recent history repeats its self, several other manufactures should have lights of similar size and output long before q4. I am sure quality will vary.... some very good... some maybe not so much.

"the industry" is certainly not dragging its feet. New and better lights are coming thick and fast. It takes significant time to research, develop and test new lights, and it's not too surprising that the newer technologies (multiple emitters and P7s, for example) come from the lesser-known manufacturers who don't have such a reputation for quality to uphold.

To suggest that all manufacturers are somehow colluding to prevent us buying the latest lights is frankly ludicrous.

It's certainly possible to run a p7 at 300+ lumens on 2x 123 today, but unless it was a large light, it would be just for short bursts (heat issues) and with a floodier beam than users probably want at this power level (because of the large die and small reflector). Even with a focused reflector, there would still be the donut hole. Might be better to use a multi cree with separate reflectors.

paulr said:

It's certainly possible to run a p7 at 300+ lumens on 2x 123 today, but unless it was a large light, it would be just for short bursts (heat issues) and with a floodier beam than users probably want at this power level (because of the large die and small reflector). Even with a focused reflector, there would still be the donut hole. Might be better to use a multi cree with separate reflectors.

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hence why Surefire would not use it to P7's maximum potential. 400 lumens out the front would mean at least 500 lumens at the LED, driven at something like 6-7 watts(rough estimate). The KL5 of old used about that much power and heats up enough, so driven a 2x123 light at 10 watts would be inconsiderate to the longevity of the light.

I wouldn't be surprised to see 600-700 lumen 2x123 lights in a month or so, as soon as someone modifies an existing "thrower" and use a hastily developed circuit to drive the LED, but how long the light will last driven at 10w, well, is anyone's guess.

as far as the doughnut hole, the KL6s(which I believe the KL9s are designed to replace) minimized that with orange peel surface, and even in a KL4 most of the time the hole is minimal(I have had 4-5 KL4s over the years). The deep reflector of the KL6/KL9 will take care of the multi-die beam, I'm confident. Multi-cree designs are fantastic for custom lights where sky is the limit, but for a mass-produced light, I'm not sure the price will be well-received, especially one that is carefully engineered and tested.

well if you want brighter there are battery technologies out there that would allow you to do a 1000 Lumen light in this form factor... and they'd even have enough juice left to dump some energy into cooling... but I think its more a cost issue rather then technology capabilities. The capability to do a 1000 Lumen light in this form factor is there. But it would likely be a $500-$1000 light.

are we talking about Li-Po or super-capacity batteries?

If one can make a 2x123 sized 1000 lumen LED light for around 5-600 it would sell well on CPF, seeing how much money people are willing to spend on 5-6 Cree mods in much larger and cumbersome multi-D-sized lights.



heck if I can get something like that 500 dollars would be cheap to spend.:thumbsup:

Marduke said:

They are already in design and pre-order. Single 18650 (about the size of 2xCR123) already produces more with P7's, P60 dropins are right up near 300 now, the Surefire Invictus is coming out this year.

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My MTE P7 5 mode top with 18650 batteries just below it. 1x18650 is the same length as 2xCR123A but slightly fatter. Note the 'maximum 900 lumens' claim.


Elektrolumens My Little Friend 3xSSC P4 high left, MTE P7 5 mode high right:


L0D CE P3WC 10440 high left, MTE P7 5 mode high right:
I think the L0D direct driven by a 10440 is as bright as any 2xCR123A. Any more current and the LED will turn blue and start smoking. So this is the reference for a P7 vs a Cree at max.


L1T v2.0 RB80 high left, MTE P7 5 mode high right:


I have listed commercial available P7 lights here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2449743&postcount=4
There are links to reviews and beamshots as well.

The SSC P7 'new' C bin is 700-800 lumens at 2.8A. This is currently available.
The SSC P7 'new' D bin is 800-900 lumens at 2.8A. This is NOT currently available.

Dodge said:

"the industry" is certainly not dragging its feet. New and better lights are coming thick and fast. It takes significant time to research, develop and test new lights, and it's not too surprising that the newer technologies (multiple emitters and P7s, for example) come from the lesser-known manufacturers who don't have such a reputation for quality to uphold.

To suggest that all manufacturers are somehow colluding to prevent us buying the latest lights is frankly ludicrous.

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You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I don't think my assertion is unreasonable at all. Research, development and the introduction of new models must coincide with available stock to be sold and other business factors. My observations have been that new offerings come in waves with periods of stagnation during which the technology and capacity to produce better products exists, but for purely business reasons are held back. The automotive industry for example could probably produce a much safer and far more fuel efficient vehicle but the cost to retool, advertise and eliminate current inventory would not be advantageous to their business. I agree that newer and better models are coming, but they will be available when the manufacturers decide to do so and not when the technology and ability to produce them exists. I am speaking in very broad and general terms, not singling out any specific manufacturer.

Frankiarmz said:

Is the technology to accomplish this so difficult and far off, or is the industry dragging it's feet hoping to sell us a bit at a time?

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I think its more the former... Yes the technology is difficult and a bit farther off.

Anyone can mod a P60 module, or inexpensive MAG host to fit the emitter and add a driver board. However... for a company like Fenix, Streamlite, Inova, Pelican, Surefire, Tek-tite (ETC..) to market such a product, too life-critical industries takes time.

I would question whether or not any of the new P7 lights have undergone some kind of MTBF or TTQV based capability studies. Such quality and design robustness studies take time over a large sample population.

Does anyone on this forum really have enough insider information to say... weather or not manufacturers are intentionally with-holding new designs in order to capitalize on the investments made in current designs?

I wonder how much time and $$ flashlight manufacturers invest into planning for obsolescence?