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Thread: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

  1. #31

    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Great pictures. I was going to ask about how the LED was sealed against water, and then I scrolled down one more picture and you answered my question. Nice job reading my mind(I actually used the tinfoil hat!!).

    Now...put a red LED in there and I'll pay hundreds. Well, I'm just joking about that...kinda

  2. #32
    Flashaholic* koala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Hey so I assumed that you figured out the boost chip ?

    Quote Originally Posted by chimo View Post
    Thanks guys.

    Moat, that's good info. Looks like the last digit is part of the date code of the IC.

    Paul
    Arc4+ mods/repair. LED drop in for SF E-Series. Onion Rings for SF A2.

  3. #33
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Quote Originally Posted by koala View Post
    Hey so I assumed that you figured out the boost chip ?
    I'm still on the road. I'll be back home tomorrow evening but my wife has my weekend lined up for me.

  4. #34
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    I found a little time and did some more testing on the E01 head. I ran a voltage in sweep from 2V down to 0.2V.

    Test configuration (for the Fenix Data)
    I used a 1% 0.05 ohm resistor in series with the LED to measure current.
    Vout was measured across the LED and the 0.05 ohm resistor.
    Vin was measured going into the driver board.
    Previously measured ArcAAA data was used.

    Keep in mind that the sample size is 1.

    Here is an Efficiency comparison of the Fenix E01 and ArcAAA.


    Power In/Out comparison


    Current In/Out comparison

  5. #35

    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Wow, that Arc AAA is doing a lot worse than tests of a few years ago. Is the circuit different?

  6. #36
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Quote Originally Posted by paulr View Post
    Wow, that Arc AAA is doing a lot worse than tests of a few years ago. Is the circuit different?
    This was one of the new heads (current version) that I unpotted. (Also note my comment on sample size above.)

  7. #37

    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Great job!

  8. #38
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Thanks for the kind words.

    One more comment on the circuit. Unless the switcher chip uses an internal current sensing scheme, this light does use a constant-voltage (CV) regulation scheme and not constant-current (CC).

    Why? The 2 ohm resistor in series with the LED does not provide feedback to the switcher chip. If the cct is CV, then that would add a lot of work for Fenix if they wanted to try to keep the output within a certain range. This method would work OK as long as the GS LEDs were fairly close for voltage binning.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Quote Originally Posted by chimo View Post
    Thanks for the kind words.

    One more comment on the circuit. Unless the switcher chip uses an internal current sensing scheme, this light does use a constant-voltage (CV) regulation scheme and not constant-current (CC).

    Why? The 2 ohm resistor in series with the LED does not provide feedback to the switcher chip. If the cct is CV, then that would add a lot of work for Fenix if they wanted to try to keep the output within a certain range. This method would work OK as long as the GS LEDs were fairly close for voltage binning.
    Great info Paul. Even with the single sample size, the CV seems to work well. I think, if we have more sample size (of GS LED and / or driver) to verify how well across the range would be great.

    One question, if you have other Nichia LED's (like Nichia DS/CS or Cree R2/Q5), would it be a good idea to do tests for other LED's with E01 drive circuit?

  10. #40
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Quote Originally Posted by ViReN View Post
    One question, if you have other Nichia LED's (like Nichia DS/CS or Cree R2/Q5), would it be a good idea to do tests for other LED's with E01 drive circuit?
    You read my mind. I was thinking about trying a DS LED to check the current.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Chimo this is great work you're doing. I'd guess it's possible to adjust the current by changing that resistor.

  12. #42
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Thanks again folks,

    I just tried one of my DS LEDs to replace the GS.

    The output current jumped to 46.8mA and the output voltage remained constant at 3.2V.

    I guess that puts a fork in the CV/CC debate.

    Here is a photo of the board w/o the LED. I backlit the board so you can see the pcb traces. The +/- at the top are the LED solder points. You can see that the output resistor (labelled 30Y) does not provide feedback to the switcher chip.


    In my opinion, using a CV driver in this type of light is perfectly acceptable as long as the current is kept reasonable to ensure the LED does not go into thermal runaway. A big well done to Fenix for doing this at such a reasonable price!

    Modding this light, however, will require some additional work in determining the required resistor to ensure the above criteria is met for the chosen replacement LED. It will require determining the replacement LED's Vf at the desired current and then calculating the voltage drop required from 3.2V and calculating the required resistance.

    Paul
    Last edited by chimo; 05-19-2008 at 10:19 AM.

  13. #43
    Flashaholic* mighty82's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    I have been trying to tell people the circuit is "cv" a long time. Finally someone can prove it.

  14. #44
    Flashaholic* koala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    I have a feeling that markings on the chip relates to the output voltage?

    3033 = 3.3v
    3036 = 3.6v
    Arc4+ mods/repair. LED drop in for SF E-Series. Onion Rings for SF A2.

  15. #45
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Quote Originally Posted by koala View Post
    I have a feeling that markings on the chip relates to the output voltage?

    3033 = 3.3v
    3036 = 3.6v
    It's hard to say. Usually some character(s) in the top mark indicate a data code. There could also be some markings on the underside of the chip. I was getting 3.2V out.

    Paul

  16. #46
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    I just did an LED swap for one of my E01s.

    I put in a DS LED with a lower Vf than the GS. The LED current for the particular DS I put in is 46mA at 3.2V. Input current is almost doubled so runtime will be commensurately shorter.

    The internal LED o-ring still seems to seal around the slightly more tapered DS LED.

    One more observation:
    I did not know if I liked how far Fenix set the LED back at first. After a bit of use, I think Fenix got the placement just right. The beam pattern of the E01 more closely resembles a high powered LED (hot spot with diminishing spill) than other 5mm LED lights that are very "ringy". I find the smooth, diminishing spill less distracting than the ringy beams and objects in the spill area are easier to distinguish.

  17. #47

    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Does the ringiness come from the GS led or its placement? My Arc AAA-GS beam is much ringier than the AAA-CS but I figured that was because of the further-forward led placement. The AAA-CS led is recessed quite far back, and the spill is wide and smooth. This_is_nascar has expressed a preference for the DS beam over the slightly brighter GS beam for this reason.

  18. #48
    Flashaholic* Crenshaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    wow, interesting thread, into subscriptions it goes...ive been wanting to replace my E01's led with a DS too...

    Crenshaw

  19. #49
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Quote Originally Posted by paulr View Post
    Does the ringiness come from the GS led or its placement? My Arc AAA-GS beam is much ringier than the AAA-CS but I figured that was because of the further-forward led placement. The AAA-CS led is recessed quite far back, and the spill is wide and smooth. This_is_nascar has expressed a preference for the DS beam over the slightly brighter GS beam for this reason.
    I think it is mainly due to placement, however, I the different tapers of the LED likely plays a part as well. LEDs with smaller "lenses" (i.e. more tapered or smaller diameter such as 3mm LEDs) should have a wider beams. Since the DS is more tapered, the end "lens" is smaller thans the GS.

  20. #50
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    I've been playing around with shortening and lightly tapering a few of these GS's (installed in E0's), and the improvement in beam smoothness (lack of rings), spill, and especially tint (pure, even snow white!) has at times been remarkable. Definite loss of throw, however (oblong, violet/blue throw, that is).

    I'm convinced that the overall shape and length of these LED's is far from being optically ideal for use in simple conical reflectored lights like the E0/E01 - especially for use as close-up/task lights.

    Still need to determine the optimum length and taper, when I get the time - appears to be somewhere around 8.4/8.5mm (vs. stock GS @ 9.0/9.1mm, and CS @ 8.7mm).

    Please excuse my addition to OT, Chimo.
    Bob

  21. #51
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Quote Originally Posted by Moat View Post
    I've been playing around with shortening and lightly tapering a few of these GS's (installed in E0's), and the improvement in beam smoothness (lack of rings), spill, and especially tint (pure, even snow white!) has at times been remarkable. Definite loss of throw, however (oblong, violet/blue throw, that is).

    I'm convinced that the overall shape and length of these LED's is far from being optically ideal for use in simple conical reflectored lights like the E0/E01 - especially for use as close-up/task lights.

    Still need to determine the optimum length and taper, when I get the time - appears to be somewhere around 8.4/8.5mm (vs. stock GS @ 9.0/9.1mm, and CS @ 8.7mm).

    Please excuse my addition to OT, Chimo.
    No problem, I look forward to seeing (and perhaps duplicating ) your work on ideal dome shape. I wonder if there could be some benefit in a non-round shape to the dome to counter the rectangular die shape? The die sits perpendicular to the flat surface formed by the leads.

    I have seen a photo of one of these turned to a 3mm size. Not sure of beam output.

  22. #52
    *Flashaholic* Illum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Quote Originally Posted by e2x2e View Post
    Now...put a red LED in there and I'll pay hundreds. Well, I'm just joking about that...kinda
    If someone manages to put a red [not orange] LED in one I'd buy it for around $30
    <Chimos got it >
    I need one for astronomy
    Last edited by Illum; 05-21-2008 at 09:07 PM.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    If you want an orange or red led 1aaa light, you can get a Peak Matterhorn for something like $25 during their memorial day sale, on for the next week or so. They are nice little lights with several led colors available.

  24. #54
    Flashaholic* mighty82's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Do anybody know what current a cree r2 or a q5 would draw at 3.2V? (this being a constant voltage circuit). Witch of them have the lowest vf? I'm thinking about modding one into one of my E01's. Just for fun.

  25. #55
    Flashaholic* chimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Quote Originally Posted by mighty82 View Post
    Do anybody know what current a cree r2 or a q5 would draw at 3.2V? (this being a constant voltage circuit). Witch of them have the lowest vf? I'm thinking about modding one into one of my E01's. Just for fun.
    In my experience, the current at 3.2V will likely be a lot more than the cct can handle. You would have to profile the specific LED you want to use to determine a current (say 50mA) and Vf and then work backwards to determine the dropping resistor. You may also want to start with a "colder" tint as you will be under-driving the Cree and the colour will shift to the warmer side.

  26. #56

    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver data

    Unless you want a wide flood beam, you'll want more of a reflector behind the Cree, or some kind of optic in front of it.

  27. #57
    Flashaholic Tohuwabohu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    I made some measurements of input current and battery voltage with an USB-oscilloscope.
    I used a 10 milliohm shunt to measure the current.

    First I measured average off-load battery voltage Vo, then average battery voltage Vin and input current Iin of some different types of AA-size batteries (scope-setting: 2ms/div, 200k points/track, 10 MS/sec, average of 32 tracks):

    [code] V0(V) Vin(V) Iin(mA)
    fresh Energizer Lithium AAA 1.80 1.71 73.8
    fresh Energizer Alkaline AAA 1.59 1.55 81.7
    used Varta Alkaline (1) AAA 1.28 1.05 107.3
    used Varta Alkaline (2) AAA 1.10 0.86 52.5
    Sanyo Eneloop AAA 1.46 1.44 82.8
    [/code]Then I took the following graphs at a setting of 20 microseconds/div:

    fresh Energizer Lithium


    fresh Energizer Alkaline


    used Varta Alkaline (1)


    used Varta Alkaline (2)

    The voltage under laod is well below 1V. Chimo stated in the first post of this tread that the head drops out of regulation at around 1V. I think that is what can be seen here.

    Sanyo Eneloop

    Battery voltage shows smaller ripple than with alkaline batteries.

    Just for comparison one measurement with an AA sized Eneloop:

    Input current is nearly identical to AAA sized Eneloop but battery voltage shows even smaller ripple.
    Last edited by Tohuwabohu; 06-10-2008 at 03:10 PM.

  28. #58

    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Great post. Thanks.

  29. #59
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    Default Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Anyone have any info on the chip used? (manufacture, pn and datasheet?)

    TIA,
    Dave

  30. #60
    *Flashaholic* Illum's Avatar
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    Ohgeez Re: Fenix E01 unpotted & driver efficiency data

    Last edited by Illum; 08-19-2010 at 08:30 PM.

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