"Surefire lumens"

I've been checking into these forums for around a year now, and it's clear that many of you (us?) have a strong underlying respect for Surefire.
Anyway, I went ahead and bought a 6P to see what the deal was. It was the standard incandescent model, and I fully anticipated switching out the light module for an LED, maybe even a Malkoff.
Initial impressions:
First off, the build quality is very good--better than the Solarforce knockoff I already own, although maybe not enough to offset the additional cost.
I was impressed with the light output--stated to be 65 lumens. It seemed to be noticeably brighter than the Fenix TK10 on low which is advertised to be 60 lumens. Am I confused by the different beam profiles and different color temperatures, or is this a case of emitter lumens vs. torch lumens?
Is there a conversion for Surefire lumens to Fenix lumens?
At any rate, both lights are very useful at these outputs, and I'm not so sure about switching the incandescent for a drop-in just yet.

Fenix measures at the emitter as a lot of others do, Surefire measures out the front and there for the difference. There is a certain amount of loss when going through a lens and optic, just how much depends on a lot of things such as the lens type, clarity and such.

Not sure of a conversion but IMHO it would be nice if everyone just measured out the front so you know what you'll be looking at and not guessing. I think it's a marketing thing for measuring at the emitter so that some lights appear brighter on paper than they really are in the use.

That's not entirely true. the P3D, T1 and TK10 (among other models) have been measured on CPF to produce the advertised lumens as "out the front" lumens.


The biggest part of what you're seeing is probably the incan vs LED effect, where the color rendition plays a big role.

It would seem only a few manufacturers measure out the front. Surefire does, Novatac does, Arc does, the others, not the case.
I recently was able to put some lights on an integrating sphere.
This is what I found:
Kelvin Lumens
NiteIze Minimag 8620 8.14
MiniMagLED 6123 27.01
MicroStream 7820 18.39
ARC P GS 6645 12.05
Fenix P1 6481 41.27
Tad Gear NDI 7145 102.4
NovaTac 120T 6184 120.6

Unfortuneately, I will not be able to get anything else on a sphere for who knows how long.
I've also been able to test lumens out the front of lights with pyrex windows, UCL, and saphire. The only difference being the lens, the light was the same. The difference in lumens was 2 to 3 lumen difference. This out of a 100+ lumen light. The lens makes very little difference. None that the human eye can detect.

Hogokansatsukan said:

It would seem only a few manufacturers measure out the front. Surefire does, Novatac does, Arc does, the others, not the case.
I recently was able to put some lights on an integrating sphere.
This is what I found:
Kelvin Lumens
NiteIze Minimag 8620 8.14
MiniMagLED 6123 27.01
MicroStream 7820 18.39
ARC P GS 6645 12.05
Fenix P1 6481 41.27
Tad Gear NDI 7145 102.4
NovaTac 120T 6184 120.6

Click to expand...

Do you have the advertized lumen figures on these to compare to your experimental numbers? Looks like the 120T is accurate (as I presume 120 refers to 120 lumens, which you observed. How about the others?) I and many of the peopoe on here are too "lazy" to google every single one of those lights...
Unfortunately, I will not be able to get anything else on a sphere for who knows how long.

I've also been able to test lumens out the front of lights with pyrex windows, UCL, and saphire. The only difference being the lens, the light was the same. The difference in lumens was 2 to 3 lumen difference. This out of a 100+ lumen light. The lens makes very little difference. None that the human eye can detect.

Click to expand...

Higher transmission lenses do not affect total lumen output as much as they do hotspot intensity.

That is because plain uncoated glass reflects about 4% from each interface, or 8% total. This doesn't mean 8% of the lumens are lost though, simply that those are bounced back into the light, off the reflector, then out again as "spill".

I find that many of the light of mine that have UCLs have a very sharp edge for the end of the pill, and light that use plain glass, have a much "softer" edge on the spill, I believe this is the contribution from the light that is reflected off the window, then off the reflector again.

Marduke said:

That's not entirely true. the P3D, T1 and TK10 (among other models) have been measured on CPF to produce the advertised lumens as "out the front" lumens.


The biggest part of what you're seeing is probably the incan vs LED effect, where the color rendition plays a big role.

Click to expand...

T1 low (60) is on par with one level E2L (45), and P3D CE turbo (160) is on par with novatac 120 highest (120), FWIW.

There is no conversion between "Surefire Lumen" and "Fenix Lumen". A lumen is a lumen, but where they're measures or how they're determined makes the difference.

Surefire rates lowest out the front lumen while Fenix seems to use the data charts to calculate at the emitter lumen. Sometimes Fenix is quite accurate and other times they can be 20% off.

In the end, as long as you like the light.

i would say gunner is right..

IMHO, its due to some of thier lights are more optically efficient then others.

Crenshaw

The ARC Premium GS advertizes 10.5 lumens and so is putting out more.
Streamlight Microstream advertizes 20 lumens but is 18.39 which is close enough.
Fenix P1 with Luxeon Star advertises 55 lumens but puts out 41.
Novatac advertises 120 lumens and puts out 120 lumens.

Fenix T1 advertises 225 lumens...and puts out in the area of 210-225, close enough.

when do you think the next time you can get hold of that intergrating sphere...

Crenshaw

I would advise purchasing a Malkoff M60LL module for your 6P. You will have an 80+ Lumen output which will be regulated at that output for at least 8 hours!!

Well worth the US$60 plus the drop in will also work on rechargeables too.

Crenshaw said:

Fenix T1 advertises 225 lumens...and puts out in the area of 210-225, close enough.

when do you think the next time you can get hold of that intergrating sphere...

Crenshaw

Click to expand...

Says who? Did you put the light into a real integrating sphere or you are estimating lumens according to some CPFers's "shoebox" sphere?

Outdoors Fanatic said:

Says who? Did you put the light into a real integrating sphere or you are estimating lumens according to some CPFers's "shoebox" sphere?

Click to expand...

A calibrated "shoebox" sphere known to be well within 5% of true IS numbers.

Also consider the way SureFire rates their incandescent lights. Not only do they measure "out the front", but they take into account the constant output decline, so the end number is more like an average output over the life of the cells. On fresh cells, a P60 lamp is making somewhere between 70 and 90 torch lumens if I recall correctly. I think the most important point is to not get caught up in output figures, because they are only part of a light's overall performance. I assume the TK10 you used for the comparison was your own? Good. Between that and the 6P you already have an awesome light setup. I wouldn't worry too much about output at this point.