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Thread: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

  1. #1
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    Default NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    The original thread is getting a little big, so I am going to close it and we can continue the discussion here in Part II.

    The original thread is here.

    The test data can be found here.

    I will continue to update that first post as I test new cells, and inform you of the updates in this thread.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Hi Tom. Do you have any Maha Imedions in your testing plans?
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Hello Ian,

    Unfortunately I stocked up on Eneloop cells and don't have any of the Imedions...

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  4. #4

    Arrow Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    Unfortunately I stocked up on Eneloop cells and don't have any of the Imedions...
    If it's of any help there is a comparison of several LSD batteries which included Imedion and eneloop in a thread by archae86 in AA and AAA NiMH low self-discharge tests--Round 2 over at dpReview.

    The best performing LSD AA in that study was the Maha Imedion (IME), followed by the Kodak Pre-Charged (KPC) and GP ReCyko (GRY) - the KPC and GRY curves seemed very similar - almost overlapping. Graphs for AA LSDs

    In the AAA LSD graphs - the GP ReCyko AAA (GR8) came top, followed by the Maha Imedion AAA (IM8), then almost overlapping eneloop AAA (EN8) and Duracell Pre-Charged AAA (DP8) (this latter is not surprising, since made in Japan Duracell Pre-Charged are suspected re-badged eneloops).

  5. #5
    Flashaholic* 1dash1's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Followup to earlier 30-day report.


    MAHA Powerex 2700 AA cells, 62 day results, discharged @ 500 mA:
    2151 ... 2158 mAH
    Average = 2155 mAH

    Summary
    =======
    Assumed starting charge: 2620 mAH
    30-day results: 2210 mAH (84%)

    62-day results: 2155 mAH (82%)


    Note: These are extremely small samples (just two cells per test) and the starting charge was assumed (but I doubt if the C401FS @ slow rate put significantly more of a charge than the C9000). The results confirm what has been anecdotally reported elsewhere, that the Powerex 2700 cells have a moderately slow rate of discharge.

  6. #6
    Enlightened servaas's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by 1dash1 View Post
    Followup to earlier 30-day report.


    MAHA Powerex 2700 AA cells, 62 day results, discharged @ 500 mA:
    2151 ... 2158 mAH
    Average = 2155 mAH
    Summary
    =======
    Assumed starting charge: 2620 mAH
    30-day results: 2210 mAH (84%)

    62-day results: 2155 mAH (82%)


    Note: These are extremely small samples (just two cells per test) and the starting charge was assumed (but I doubt if the C401FS @ slow rate put significantly more of a charge than the C9000). The results confirm what has been anecdotally reported elsewhere, that the Powerex 2700 cells have a moderately slow rate of discharge.
    I can concur these results. I did a test on 4 x Powerex 2700mAh AA cells late last year. The cells were 14 months old at the time of cahrge, and had been used in a camera for around 12 cycles. Charging and discharging was done in a MH-C9000. Charge rate was 1000mA, and discharge rate was 500mA.

    Cell, Initial capacity, 60 day capacity, % retained
    1 2557 2188 85.6%
    2 2625 2203 83.9%
    3 2561 2139 83.5%
    4 2537 2150 85.6%
    avg 2570 2170 84.6%

    Jeff Servaas | Servaas Products | Australian Distributor for Maha Powerex | www.servaas.com.au

  7. #7
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Hello 1dash1,

    Interesting results.

    I believe your, and Servaas's results are similar to what BentHeadTX found when doing similar testing.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  8. #8
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    I really like the result table of Part 1, and hoping to see Powerex 2700 added.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* koala's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Please have a look at this, see second page too.

    Sanyo Eneloop vs PowerEx Imedion.
    Arc4+ mods/repair. LED drop in for SF E-Series. Onion Rings for SF A2.

  10. #10
    Flashaholic* 1dash1's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Thanks for the link!

    Not surprised. I've avoided buying the Imedions and have been using Powerex 2700's and Eneloops.
    Ua Mau Ke Ea O Ka 'Aina I Ka Pono.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Im wanting to buy some new rechargables for my apex for caving. I am guessing that these POWEREX 2700 NiMH are the best ones on the market right now? i can get 4 sets of 4 for $50 off of the thomas-distributing.com site.

  12. #12

    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    So what's the current front-runner? I'm looking to replace my ~100 Tenergy 2600mah AA's that are getting old. I need a decent all-around battery for powering radios, scanners, digital cameras, wireless mice, and of course, FLASHLIGHTS!

    Cell durability is more important than sheer capacity. Buying almost a hundred batteries at a time to power all your stuff is obnoxious. Self-discharge rate also isn't that important; they get cycled and charged regularly regardless.

    Thanks.

  13. #13
    Flashaholic* 5.0Trunk's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Hello,

    I just picked up the Enveloop package from Costco, $28.99, to be used in my only AA light, the LD20 and my Canon SX10IS camera. I also just received a MH-C9000 WizardOne Charger from TD. Now I need to read all the post so that I can get the best performance from these batteries and also my RS and ROV (5 year Old Batteries) AA batteries.

    Thanks..

  14. #14
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Sort of a dumb question, maybe. I read the test of the batteries on the other thread and was suprised where the eneloop's were on the list. Is the reason that these batteries so good, is from the low discharge rate of the batteries? I am guessing if you want a battery that will last a lot longer off the charger, you go with the 2700 sanyo's or something else. I got the lacross charger and the 2600 lacross batteries. I have to say, those battiers lasted the entire 10 hour cave trip last weekend, where other's went through 2 sets of energizer rechargeables.

    I think the 2600 lacross b atteries are pretty good. not sure how well they hold their charge though.

  15. #15
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Were they used Energizer 2500 cells? They have a particularly bad reputation.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
    Ian.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Silverfox, do you have any experience or testing info on the AccuManger or AccuEvolution LSD batteries? I wonder how they compare to the other cells?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Hello Filibuster,

    Sorry, I don't have access to those cells. [Edit: This is not correct. I do have some of these cells and will be testing them in the near future. [end Edit]

    Tom
    Last edited by SilverFox; 08-02-2009 at 09:24 AM.
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  18. #18
    Flashaholic* Russel's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    I have been using 8 D cell AccuEvolution LSD batteries in a portable fan this summer. I haven't performed any testing, but I can tell you they have been performing very well in the fan. I run the fan all night (750ma) and charge them in the morning.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* 45/70's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chads93GT View Post
    I read the test of the batteries on the other thread and was suprised where the eneloop's were on the list. Is the reason that these batteries so good, is from the low discharge rate of the batteries?
    That's part of it. That is the major purpose of LSD cells.

    I see a lot of folks refer to Tom's chart in that thread. I rarely refer to it, myself. The real information is in the individual graphs for each cell. The chart is great, if, as you suggest, you are going to be using your cells soon after charging and, are going to discharge them at 1.0 Amp. Other than that, the chart really isn't that useful, other than as a benchmark.

    Particularly, where significant current is applied, the graphs paint quite a different picture. If there were a chart representing how well the cells hold voltage under load, for example, the eneloop would be nearer the top.

    Dave

  20. #20

    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Exactly,
    I can link to post done by a photographer that compared Sanyo Eneloop vs PowerEx Imedion AAs and it came to the exact same conclusion as the different thread that was linked above. The Imedion gave a slight increase in the number of shots but Eneloops blew away the Imedion on the time it takes for the flash to recycle to full power and ready for the next shot.

    LSD batteries and lots of shots are important to a photographer but recycle time of the flash is KING. And this how the general conclusion has been drawn that Eneloops are the best choice in the LSD world for professional photographers using compact flashes. And if anyone cares the Powerex MAHA are head shoulders above the rest in the non-LSD world (yet have been shown to hold their charger very well compared to others).

    However, I've never posted this link because we can't necessarily draw the conclusion that they are the best for flashlights.

    What needs to be done, is to get one of these reviewers who have SEVERAL models of AA and AAx2 lights and run tests with Eneloops vs. Imedions. Preferably repeating each and every light and battery combo 5 times and taking the average curve from the 5 tests (kicking out any dude cells).

    A lot of work but it would give a very good picture of which was better if any.

    In our photography work we use Powerex MAHA because they get more shots and they maintain a fast recycle rate for very deep into the curve when compared to eneloops. The kicker is that we have to make sure they are freshly charged right before the event. Because of this we keep on hand a large number of eneloops for situations where we need them quickly or we forget to charge the Powerex's.

    For flashlight use I would suspect Eneloops would be the clear choice over Powerex MAHA because of the sexy LSD. However if you need a very long run time in a relatively short amount of time (caving perhaps?) then I would load in Powerex MAHAs if I had both on hand. I certainly wouldn't go out and buy them if I had Eneloops. I'd just carry more spares in my pocket..
    Last edited by crockett; 08-01-2009 at 09:23 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Who actually manufactures Powerex LSD's?

  22. #22
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Hello Fillibuster,

    I screwed up on my last comment to you...

    I have the cells, I just have to find the time to check them out. After I posted my last comment, something didn't seem right with it and I found the cells I am supposed to test.

    To many distractions with my job.

    Sorry about that.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  23. #23
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by crockett View Post
    However, I've never posted this link because we can't necessarily draw the conclusion that they are the best for flashlights.
    If you mean http://www.calvinstudio.net/?p=472 then (A) it's already been posted, and (B) what's your problem? Camera flashes make light.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
    Ian.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by TorchBoy View Post
    If you mean http://www.calvinstudio.net/?p=472 then (A) it's already been posted, and (B) what's your problem? Camera flashes make light.
    A) No I was talking about this thread here:

    http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=677074

    B) I don't understand? No problem at all. I was just reinforcing what a previous poster wrote. It probably is true that the one of best batteries for these LED flashlights is the Sanyo Eneloops but we can't take camera flash test as the bible. A flash pop is a lot different than a gentle continuous draw of a flashlight. To be certain we would need to run tests with flashlights. I just think doing tests under actual load would give us a more "real world" picture.

    That's all I was sayin...no big deal.
    Last edited by crockett; 08-05-2009 at 01:15 AM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    A number of flashlights found on CPF can draw as much current as a camera flash. Eneloops perform well in such lights, as well as low-draw ones, for that matter. If you do a search of this board, you should find at least one or two load-based tests of the Eneloops.
    Ray
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  26. #26
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by crockett View Post
    A) No I was talking about this thread here:

    http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=677074
    Wow, what a lot of testing. Nice find! It really needs some graphs though.

    Anyone have any idea what effect this sort of testing has on the flash tube involved?
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
    Ian.
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  27. #27

    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Hi Friends,

    I have received my 8x AccuEvolution LSD D size and MAHA 808M Charger last week.

    I made a setup to Discharge the batteries to test and get some non-scientific data.

    Test:

    - Batteries were reading ~1,285 before charging
    - They all fully charged @2000ma
    - They were discharged with ~0,55 Ohm ceramic resistor

    Here are the result for first 4 batteries



    And in excel format: http://dosyalar.ledcozum.com/CPF/LSD/AccuLSD.xls


    I have a question to SilverFox, is it normal to get ~8000mah capacity? According to datasheet discharge @2000mA must give near 10.000mAh (min: 8900mAh). These LSD's need any Charge/Discharge cycles before catching the nominal capacity?

    Thanks,

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* uk_caver's Avatar
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    It looks like you're calculating the the current from the voltage and resistance.
    How did you allow for any extra resistances in the discharge path?
    Were you measuring the voltage at the cell, or across the resistor?

  29. #29

    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Current calculated by voltage over Resistor. Data supplied on new table,



    Quote Originally Posted by uk_caver View Post
    It looks like you're calculating the the current from the voltage and resistance.
    How did you allow for any extra resistances in the discharge path?
    Were you measuring the voltage at the cell, or across the resistor?

  30. #30
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    Default Re: NiMh Shoot Out Part II

    Hello Eprom,

    I would have expected results closer to the 8900 mAh listed on the data sheet. However, many brands are labeled "optimistically..."

    You can run a few charge/discharge cycles on them to see if there is an improvement. It may be that the capacity will continue to improve with cycling.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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