Too hot to handle

prof student

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I just read another CPFmer that had his SF LED light accidently turn on & got too hot to handle.

Well, I had that happen with my SL Strion. It was probably on for about 10-15 minutes. It got REALLY hot. Too hot to really hold on to it in your hand even if you needed it.

Well, if they generate that kind of heat, how in the world are you supposed to hold the light if you are going to be using it for an extended period of time? I.E. looking for stuff in the attic, searching out in a dark field, etc...

Are they not really meant for every day/extended long time of use?

Are they meant to be only tacticle lights, meaning only to be turned on intermittenly?

Thanks for the input.
 

lronchef

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That's an excellent question. If I'm doing light SAR and I am searching large areas at night, I'm not going to be wanting to cycle the light off and on to let it cool, or pour water on it, or rotate to a second light.

I was extremely pissed to find out my P3D "should not" be left on Turbo mode HIGH for more than 10 minutes because it would damage the bulb or circuit board. WTF is that about? Seems like they're going for tactical purposes ONLY and not a very broad range of uses...which can be longer than 10 minutes. How dumb would a duty cop look if his light was getting too hot as he worked a busy sobriety check point and waved on a drunk because his light didn't work?
 

Patriot

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If the light was accidentally left on in a pocket or enclosed space it could be too hot to touch for a few minutes.

When the flashlight is held in a hand, the hand acts like a liquid (blood) cooled heat sink and draws heat away from the flashlight. I've never owned a light that got too hot to operate while holding.

A light could also get pretty hot standing by itself in open air but this would depend on the air temperature and wouldn't be nearly as severe as the flashlight left on in a pocket scenario.



Some high performance custom lights to have limits on how long they can be run due to thermal issues. They've pushed the envelope because they want something small yet very bright.
 

Patriot

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I was extremely pissed to find out my P3D "should not" be left on Turbo mode HIGH for more than 10 minutes because it would damage the bulb or circuit board. WTF is that about? Seems like they're going for tactical purposes ONLY and not a very broad range of uses...which can be longer than 10 minutes. How dumb would a duty cop look if his light was getting too hot as he worked a busy sobriety check point and waved on a drunk because his light didn't work?


:huh: Ironchef, the duty cop has the option to switch the light from turbo to anyone of three lower settings! Isn't that "broad range" enough?

Look at the turbo mode as an extra feature. Fenix didn't have to make the light as bright as they did but chose to because some users like or have need for an ultra bright setting for a limited duration . You don't have to use the turbo mode if you don't want or need to. The options for Fenix would have been to limit the output to high (120 lumens for a Q5) or make the light much thicker and heavier to pull excess heat from the LED. Neither of those choices appeal to me whatsoever. I say give me as many lumens as the battery can reasonably maintain and let me decide when it gets too warm.
 
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LumenMan

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:huh: Ironchef, the duty cop has the option to switch the light from turbo to anyone of three lower settings! Isn't that "broad range" enough?

Look at the turbo mode as an extra feature. Fenix didn't have to make the light as bright as they did but chose to because some users like or have need for an ultra bright setting for a limited duration . You don't have to use the turbo mode if you don't want or need to. The options for Fenix would have been to limit the output to high (120 lumens for a Q5) or make the light much thicker and heavier to pull excess heat from the LED. Neither of those choices appeal to me whatsoever. I say give me as many lumens as the battery can reasonably maintain and let me decide when it gets too warm.


Amen ! :thumbsup:
 

2xTrinity

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I just read another CPFmer that had his SF LED light accidently turn on & got too hot to handle.
IMO this is is why I believe more companies should add a $0.02 thermistor to the feedback loop on the regulator. That would cause the output ot intentionally reduce itself if temperature increases beyond some "too hot to hold" threshold.

The point about the hand acting as a cooling mechanism is absolutely correct. However, I find that much of the time I want to use a light for an extended period of time, I will often set it down in a tailstanding position, or leaning against something etc in order to free my hands to do some sort of task. In these cases, I would like there to be the thermal feedback mechanism I described in many of these cases so that the light won't be dangerously hot (to the circuit) or uncomfortably hot (for my hand) when I got to pick it up. Or as insurance in the csae of accidental turn-on in an insulated pocket or something.
 

Desertrat

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I love my little PalmBlaze K2 Luxeon.....but it too.....gets very hot in about 5 minutes.....so only use it for a quick look at things in the house, backyard etc....if I want more runtime without getting a hot hand....I use the G2Z SF with the LED module in it.
 

GPB

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I have heard a number of times that holding a light in your hand will cool a light....but I have a little trouble with that idea and wonder if it isn't just an idea that someone thought of and its been repeated often enough that now its just accepted. The reason it seems odd is that when you are outside and cold, you can warm an area by putting your hand on it. If your ears or nose are cold, you can place your hand over that area, even a cold hand, and get relief. Also, when you read any survival advice, it always says to curl up in a fetal position to conserve body heat. Both of these seem to indicate that air will cool better than your skin....but that's not what is routinely quoted in here.....can someone help me reconcile this discrepancy ?

I am really not trying to start an argument or anything.....I am just trying understand this better.
 

Crenshaw

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I have heard a number of times that holding a light in your hand will cool a light....but I have a little trouble with that idea and wonder if it isn't just an idea that someone thought of and its been repeated often enough that now its just accepted. The reason it seems odd is that when you are outside and cold, you can warm an area by putting your hand on it. If your ears or nose are cold, you can place your hand over that area, even a cold hand, and get relief. Also, when you read any survival advice, it always says to curl up in a fetal position to conserve body heat. Both of these seem to indicate that air will cool better than your skin....but that's not what is routinely quoted in here.....can someone help me reconcile this discrepancy ?

I am really not trying to start an argument or anything.....I am just trying understand this better.

heat travels from an area of high heat, to an area of low heat. Always. When you hand is warmer then your ear, heat will trasfer from your hand to your ear. When your light is warmer then your hand, heat will transfer from your light to your hand.

IMHO, Patriot36's got it exactly right. turbo is just that, TURBO!
youre not meant to have to use it for very long, they just give you that option if you need extreme output for a few minuits.

Crenshaw
 

KeyGrip

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When the flashlight is held in a hand, the hand acts like a liquid (blood) cooled heat sink and draws heat away from the flashlight.

This is true in my experience, and for the record that experience involves using a SF L4 for more than fifteen minutes at a time. :poof:
 

Gunner12

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Turbo can probably be used for over 10 minutes without any too far from normal damage or problem to the LED. That is unless you are using the light in the middle of the desert at midday in the sun. It's fine if you don't use the light in "high ambient temperatures".

When the light gets hotter then your body, the heat from the light will transfer to you body, and that's why holding the light helps remove some of the heat.
 

prof student

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Well, the case that I carry my Strion in is very thin. It isn't thick & insulated by any means. Even after I pulled it out, turned it off & let it sit there for a few minutes, it was still too hot to hold.

So, yall are saying, that when you are actually holding the light, you have held a metal-aluminum high powered light for more than 10-15, maybe even 20 minutes, or even more without getting hot?

Like 2xTrinity said, what if you have to set it down for a few minutes? How in the world is someone supposed to pick it up if the heat builds up? Now, I don't expect an answer on that one, just talking out loud.
 

sORe-EyEz

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hi prof student,

this is the down-side of high intensity lights. its quite pointless (specs wise) to know a given light can put out ??lumens per ??mins only to find it too hot to hold in a fraction of the total runtime.

it may not be a problem in winter but its not always winter, in Singapore its summer all year round. so alternatively have another low output light that has a long runtime that doesn't build up heat.
 

Yoda4561

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I have heard a number of times that holding a light in your hand will cool a light....but I have a little trouble with that idea and wonder if it isn't just an idea that someone thought of and its been repeated often enough that now its just accepted. The reason it seems odd is that when you are outside and cold, you can warm an area by putting your hand on it. If your ears or nose are cold, you can place your hand over that area, even a cold hand, and get relief. Also, when you read any survival advice, it always says to curl up in a fetal position to conserve body heat. Both of these seem to indicate that air will cool better than your skin....but that's not what is routinely quoted in here.....can someone help me reconcile this discrepancy ?

I am really not trying to start an argument or anything.....I am just trying understand this better.

Just buy a surefire L4 and use it for 15 minutes while it's in your hand. Now try holding it after it's been on 15 minutes while NOT in your hand.

Think of it as a car. Obviously the car is cooled by air, but if were to try and run it with no radiator and coolant you would quickly get a blown engine. This is because running liquid around the metal parts and then using a much larger radiating surface (the radiator) is a much more efficient way of using the available air to remove heat. With a very hot-running LED like a surefire L4 or similar lights your body acts as the coolant and radiator system.

And for the record, air is about the worst conductor of heat out there next to a vacuum. Solids conduct best, liquids next, then gases. There are some oddball exceptions to this like heatpipes, which use a hollow copper tube lined with a wicking material that contains a liquid (often water) in a vacuum. These are actually far more efficient at transferring heat than a solid piece of copper of similar size.
 
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Patriot

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Well, the case that I carry my Strion in is very thin. It isn't thick & insulated by any means. Even after I pulled it out, turned it off & let it sit there for a few minutes, it was still too hot to hold.

So, yall are saying, that when you are actually holding the light, you have held a metal-aluminum high powered light for more than 10-15, maybe even 20 minutes, or even more without getting hot?

Like 2xTrinity said, what if you have to set it down for a few minutes? How in the world is someone supposed to pick it up if the heat builds up? Now, I don't expect an answer on that one, just talking out loud.



The insulating material wouldn't necessarily have to be thick. If it prevents air from flowing across the surface of the light then it's going to get hotter more quickly and reach a higher temperature. All lights have different heat dissipating characteristics so your particular light may take a little longer to cool. I'm a surefire guy and they cool down reasonably fast except for the X200. You can always trickle some cool water across a quality light to cool it down very quickly.

All high performance pocket lights are going to get warm but they stay much cooler in the hand. This is easy to test and verify as Yoda mentioned. Run your Strion for 8 minutes while sitting on your mouse pad and pick it up with your hand or measure the temperature with a probe or infrared thermometer, if you want to be more technical. Now let the light cool for at least 20 minutes and run it for another 8 minutes while holding the light in your right hand. At the end of 8 minutes switch the light over to your left hand and compare (or measure) the difference from when it was just sitting on your mouse pad.

With regards to setting the light down, it depends on how long it's sitting. A few minutes wont likely heat it up too hot to touch. Perhaps you might be looking at this issue from the wrong perspective. Small, high performance, personal lighting is a convenience that we weren't able to enjoy 15 years ago because they didn't really exists for the average consumer. You could get reasonably bright light in a larger form factor or you get get a small light but the light output was a tiny fraction of what we have available today.

By its very nature a high performance, personal carry light is going to be small, and it's going to be bright. It won't be able to overcome the laws of thermal dynamics but you do have options if a "hot" light is unacceptable.

1) You can wear a glove or at least keep one handy if you like to frequently run your compact, high output light for extended periods of time.

2) You could consider the new generation of LED lights. They run cooler and are more efficient than the incandescent filament in your Strion. You often have the option of variable output allowing you to use just the amount of light that you need.

3) Since we have to work within the laws of physics you may have to get something larger with more mass, something of more average performance or a combination of both. A 60 lumen incan won't get nearly as hot as 116 lumen incan of the same size. A 100 lumen LED won't get as warm as a 215 lumen LED light of the same size. Both of these options will still produce much more light than what is available from a stock 3D mag.

4) Carry a secondary light of less light and heat output. Many of us flashlight folk often like to use the appropriate amount of light for the task at hand, thus we wouldn't use a Strion or other high performance light to write a letter on a park bench, if we didn't have too. A small button cell LED light like the Photon or something taking conventional batteries, like the ArcAAA or Fenix EO1, may be carried to supplement your lighting needs. These little lights can produce 5-10 lumens which is a fair amount of light for many tasks. If you don't like the idea of multiple lights, then refer to option two regarding variable output lights.
 

Gunner12

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...
3) Since we have to work within the laws of physics you may have to get something larger with more mass, something of more average performance or a combination of both. A 60 lumen incan won't get nearly as hot as 116 lumen incan of the same size. A 100 lumen LED won't get as warm as a 215 lumen LED light of the same size. Both of these options will still produce much more light than what is available from a stock 3D mag...

Well, just to clarify a bit, a 100 lumen LED that is half as efficient as one producing 200 lumen would produce a bit more heat then the 200 lumen LED. A Luxeon V producing 200 lumen will run quite a bit hotter then a Cree XR-E Q5 producing 200 lumen.

Everything else Patriot36 has written is pretty good.
 

kramer5150

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I can only comment on the SF-6P, Superfire WF-501B, and the warm-running DX drop in modules I own.

In-field use with air circulating over the lights they get warm, but stay cool enough to avoid cooking the vital parts inside.

Neither of these are very good for close-proximity work, where they are stationary. Both are too focused and bright, and will impair your vision when shone on a reflective surface and your eyes are dilated to the darkness. You'll end up seeing green spots for 10 minutes. The lack of air cooling will heat them up quickly... although neither of mine have suffered any permanent damaged from such use.
 

Patriot

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Well, just to clarify a bit, a 100 lumen LED that is half as efficient as one producing 200 lumen would produce a bit more heat then the 200 lumen LED. A Luxeon V producing 200 lumen will run quite a bit hotter then a Cree XR-E Q5 producing 200 lumen.


Good point Gunner, thanks for the clarification.

I should have said 100 lumen driven Cree vs. a 200 lumen driven cree of the same bin.

Thanks

Paul
 

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