It's okay to solder SF lithium... Really?

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koala

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While browsing some shotshow pics I came across some interesting stuff in Surefire booth...

This is not my picture, I copied it from this guy...
http://www.fotop.net/kevinchau/shotshow06surefire

307xa8m.jpg
 
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Fallingwater

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You can solder to lithium cells if you know what you're doing.
You need a soldering station that can reach 450°C or thereabouts; this will allow you to keep the tip on the cell for a much shorter time, therefore preventing the cell from overheating.
A cheapie iron won't do.
 

LuxLuthor

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You can solder to lithium cells if you know what you're doing.
You need a soldering station that can reach 450°C or thereabouts; this will allow you to keep the tip on the cell for a much shorter time, therefore preventing the cell from overheating.
A cheapie iron won't do.

:shakehead I really believe these kind of posts are dangerous for most of the people who will be reading this forum, and really do not see the point in you representing the idea in such a simplistic manner...especially with no warning of the explosive Lithium toxic fire downside. :scowl:

If PK (working for SF) did this....and we don't know he did for sure...we don't know what all the safety conditions and preparation steps he took, nor equipment or technique. I would like to see a Surefire employee put in writing that it is ok to solder their primary lithium 123a cells--under any conditions...not likely.

It is not just a matter of overheating the cell. It is a matter of knowing exactly what structures are under the terminals you are soldering, how they can be affected by the extremely high heat of soldering, and how you would know if you did it right and safely.

As you just saw from Sgt. LED posting, people jump into doing things like this with very little understanding of the downsides, just because they see an ill-defined image seeming to provide a Surefire endorsement, with no details....followed by your post making it sound like no big deal at all. :shakehead
 

Fallingwater

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:shakehead I really believe these kind of posts are dangerous for most of the people who will be reading this forum, and really do not see the point in you representing the idea in such a simplistic manner...especially with no warning of the explosive Lithium toxic fire downside
I did say "if you know what you're doing". This implies you don't just grab a soldering iron and heat the cell to a million degrees.

As you just saw from Sgt. LED posting, people jump into doing things like this with very little understanding of the downsides, just because they see an ill-defined image seeming to provide a Surefire endorsement, with no details....followed by your post making it sound like no big deal at all.
Again I point your attention to the "if you know what you're doing" line.
If you know what you're doing, it is no big deal at all.

Of course, knowing what you're doing implies doing this in a safe ventilated place with no flammable materials nearby, so if the cell does vent you just let it do its thing and then clean up. Oh, and with a fireproof container nearby so you can throw the cell in if something goes wrong and you have the time. Perhaps I should have said this in the first post.
 

koala

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Sorry about all the fuss for being a curious cat. The image is blur, don't know if there's a solder bob there. I hope you all don't jump to conclusion.

Maybe just a solder glob on a piece of tin then spot welded or maybe directly soldered. Somebody may have notice it.

My question is simple, how hard is it to make some CR123 battery holder? What if the cell catches fire during the expo? It seems to be quite a distance from the audience so it shouldn't cause any major injuries. The knife booths will probably be more dangerous.

Have a look at the gadget on the right, there's another CR123 under the circuit board. It sure look like a homemade timebomb to me. :naughty: There's wires connecting to the CR123 and the solder glob looks like a magnet to me. Now if you solder on a magnet without leads it will lose magnetism...

Despite all the warning signs, I really like the look of the booth with the additions of the wires and circuit boards. It looks like the booth is filled with passionate engineers rather than 'marketers'.
 
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NextLight

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I hope the question was meant mostly in jest, but just in case:

No... Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be.
:shakehead

If you have a bucket of sand or two and several dry chem fire extinguishers nearby, in a metal benched flame retardant office lab, WELL SEPARATED from your home and loved ones... and an iron with sufficient thermal mass, low temp solder, some active flux, great soldering skills, safety glasses, don't carry the results in your pocket or otherwise on your person, or even hand it to the uninformed, and you carry more insurance than Mutual of Omaha... But come on, what for? Really?

RANT ON
In the early days of Laser Products (the original name for SureFire) I worked at a defense contractor just a few miles from Laser Products Fountain Grove headquarters. My employer was developing a product intended to be powered by F cell size Lithium (sub chemistry deleted) Chloride ~24V (no load) battery packs. Our "thingies" were very high current, and needed to have minimal losses, plus look good when our DoD customer came to visit. The Project Engineer wanted contacts soldered directly to cells in the battery packs, so they could be bolted to our prototype, like they would be in production.

I was too junior and uninformed to say aloud that this idea wasn't safe, but my experience soldering more ordinary cells suggested it could not be done without risking damage to the VERY expensive and reportedly volatile batteries. We had a "Super Tech" who was a NASA Certified solderer saying he could "solder anything" and anxious to impress the Project Engineer. As usual he completed his task swiftly, and his work was visually perfect.

I was not present when our "thingy" was fired up for the customer. The first cell soon vented, then lit up. Other cells followed. Bolted to our prototype product, the battery could no longer be pushed into our sand-filled safety box. Even if it could, the air tight lid could not close, due to the overall product's size.

Our entire building (full of classified stuff on most every bench and desk) was evacuated and the fire department responded in force. Two people were kept overnight in the hospital. The prototype was destroyed along with the battery and the workbench. Direct financial losses would have bought several new Mercedes, but no one suffered any permanent injuries. The Project and Lab Managers were demoted or fired; I can't remember. The Tech was reprimanded and ended up reporting to me some time later. He had 15 years experience on me.

We finished our project development, powering our "thingy" with 2 big automotive starter batteries and an HP charger - power supply, in a 4 foot coffin-like enclosure. Ironic, yes? The company never allowed another lithium battery, of any type, in the lab again.

Flash forward to the present: My little college town Fire Department dealt with at least 2 (probably 3) causal lithium fires in 2006, including one in their own vehicle, which seriously endangered a surprised firefighter as well as a $150K vehicle. They view the risks as serious enough the Fire Marshal declined to assist me in any destructive lithium battery fault testing. It was suggested I talk to the bomb squad of our police department before I "... deliberately create any incendiary devices anywhere within (the) city limits."

Whenever I handle an unusual lithium battery, or even a common lithium cell that may have been treated unusually, I think about the safety of my loved ones. Every time I see a small coffin or similarly shaped box, I can't help thinking about that difficult learning experience, and all the lithium based batteries today powering my hotwired lights, laptops, radios, and other projects.

If you don't mind the occasional fire, explosion, corrosive chemicals and/or toxic fumes release, you should be fine soldering away on your lithium primaries.
Once you get those wires soldered on, you could give 'em a quick reverse charge too, if you have yet to see the predicted results.
 

IMSabbel

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I hope the question was meant mostly in jest, but just in case:

No... Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be.
:shakehead
Yeah. And i never dare fill up a Zippo because i have seen oil tankers burn.
Holy hyperbole, there.
And i so do like those area-51 stories "in the secret lab / NSA center/ ect I was working".
If everybody who posts stuff like that actually did work there, those labs would fill half of the US.
 

Illum

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I dunno about soldering the cells, but what about spot welding? surely Luxluthor know the possibilities with that!:nana:

mmm, scratching the top of the battery a little bit rough, then add some flux...:whistle:
What about low temp solder? say silver over rosin?

http://www.logoheli.com/end2end.htm
 
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NextLight

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Yeah. And i never dare fill up a Zippo because i have seen oil tankers burn.
Holy hyperbole, there.
And i so do like those area-51 stories "in the secret lab....

I think you will find Zippo lighters are designed to be refilled safely. Lithium primary cells are not designed to be soldered. It is not ordinarily safe or wise for most to do so, in my experience, and thus I hope to discourage beginners here, from casually doing so.

If you wish undertake moderate to high risk lithium battery activities yourself, you have my blessing; The last two sentences in my original post were for you.

OFF TOPIC
As to your poke at my "secret lab" story, you are right of course; The magnitude of risk of soldering lithium cells (of any type) is unrelated to whether said lab existed, was secret or not, and whether or not I actually worked there as Peon (it sometime felt like it) or Technical Specialist III, or President (nope) or even at all.

Brunswick Corporation (Yes, the bowling ball/lane company) has long since divested itself of it Defense Division operations in Costa Mesa, CA. (See the first paragraph under "HISTORY"and last paragraph in the link below) but some of the things they developed did reportedly serve Israel and the US Navy, especially in the war in Lebanon in 1982-83:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/itald/TALD.html

I will add: The product described in the link above was engineered in a different building or lab from where I worked. I have no direct knowledge of it. It may be similar to my own work only in the fact is too was reportedly lithium battery powered. Various Brunswick comments about former defense activities are included under "Discontinued Operations" in its 1995 annual report:

http://sec.edgar-online.com/1995/03/23/00/0000014930-95-000003/Section2.asp


For the record: I don't know ANY government secrets and act to make it clear to clients and associates: I will not share anything which might lead others to non-public information to which they have no legal right to access.

Enough of this. I am on to other threads and projects.

Happy Belated Veterans Day. Those that could, did. Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. The lowest are those criticize and impune the values of those who serve.

Regards,
David Young
 

SilverFox

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Hello Vince,

Excellent detective work.

I am sure that everyone is aware that there are dangers associated when joining materials. The dangers increase when working on sealed containers, and they increase again when those sealed containers have chemicals in them.

Like David, I think we have covered about as much as we can on this, so I will close this thread.

If your original question did not get answered, feel free to ask it again in another thread.

Tom
 
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