Malkoff M60F good for indoor search use?

All,

I've been in and out of CPF over the last several weeks and I come in today to see threads re: the new P7 and Gene's M60F. Geez things move fast.

My question is, would the M60F be better suited for searching "normal" residential structures than the M60? Has it been out long enough for any meaninful eval? The straight M60 is the heat, but I suspect that the flood version would be even better for going thru a residence - see the whole room at once - sort of thing. Also sounds like it may have that whole "wall of light" thing going as well.

Any feedback? Gene, do you have any LEO's running/T&E this yet?

It seem more of a wall of light then a pure flood light but it should be at least decent for lighting up a room.

But I've seen 4 beamshots total of the drop-in.

It's an awesome drop-in. My favorite by far. Yes, I like the M60 too but that is just a "very nice beam" version of a lot of already available lights. The M60F has no equal in my limited collection. It's awesome up to 25 or even 50 feet, indoors or out.

I imagine it would be great for "clearing a room" but I would defer to the tactical experts with military or police training for proper techniques and equipment recommendations for that purpose. I would certainly demo the M60F for them to get their opinion, it's that good.

But I bet they would want just a little more hotspot. If the M60 is 6 degrees and the M60F is 25 degrees, then like someone else said in my post about it, 15 degrees might just be even better!!

Wattnot said:

But I bet they would want just a little more hotspot. If the M60 is 6 degrees and the M60F is 25 degrees, then like someone else said in my post about it, 15 degrees might just be even better!!

Click to expand...

Has anyone asked Gene if a 15 degree optic/reflector is doable? :huh:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=200890

The pictures I posted here may help. Still working on getting a better camera with manual exposure overide to do some serious work.

From what I have seen of mine first hand, I would say yes, you will want the M60F.

roymail said:

Has anyone asked Gene if a 15 degree optic/reflector is doable? :huh:

Click to expand...

I asked the question in a different thread, there is no 15 degree optic. I am still curious and haven't heard a response (I know your busy Gene, no rush) as to what the 25 degree flood looks like without the diffuser, and what would happen if the 6 degree optic had a mild diffuser???
I have a green LED 3 watt LED with optic that I believe is a 25 degree Khatod some one gave me and I put together. It transitions to a smooth hotspot, but would love to see what happens with powerful white one.

I do know that I measured the actual Lumens output on mine and was . I still want to put together my own report package with photos before I spill the photons. Need to get my hands on a better camera.

MrGman said:

I asked the question in a different thread, there is no 15 degree optic.

Click to expand...

Khatod does not make a 15 degree optic, but Ledil does:

http://www.ledil.com/datasheets/DataSheet_LC1.pdf

For their part, Fraen make an 8 degree optic:

http://www.fraensrl.com/images/FC_XR_XR_E_datasheet.pdf

I received my M60F four days ago and it is now my favorite P60 unit. I have them all and I can honestly say, there is nothing that compares to it :twothumbs

For searching an indoor structure, it is much better than the M60. You walk in a room and everything is lit up. Makes it much easier to identify objects/subjects.

M60F is the "new" L4. The old "Wall of Light" is now out shined.

enLIGHTenment said:

Khatod does not make a 15 degree optic, but Ledil does:

http://www.ledil.com/datasheets/DataSheet_LC1.pdf

For their part, Fraen make an 8 degree optic:

http://www.fraensrl.com/images/FC_XR_XR_E_datasheet.pdf

Click to expand...

Thank you very much! Moddin' time!

Gene, the 15 degree Ledil optic looks very interesting. Have you tried or are considering trying it to make a M60-15F?? ?? ? :thinking:

First, ceiling bounce is a very common illumination technique in indoor search. It helps to avoid dazzling your own vision from bounceback. It also helps to provide wider illumination even for non-flood beam patterns.

Second, if we assume that you are talking about solo indoor search (e.g., a homeowner investigating the proverbial bump in the night), then you are probably looking at a deliberate (or slow) search, not a dynamic one.

Thus, you are well advised to avoid being caught in the open, beyond cover, before you've cleared a particular area. In addition, it is far easier to search a slice of space at a time, rather than the entire volume of a room. You simply can't take in all of the information and process it in a useful and safe fashion. You should be using pieing techniques for you deliberate search.

There are also certain illumination techniques that are more confusing for anyone who is hiding to figure out where the searcher is located, based on the perceived source of light and the illumination pattern.

What this means is that the wall of light is really not as useful or necessary as it may seem theoretically.

More important than all of the above, however, is if you don't know anything about indoor search, then you are putting the cart before the horse in worrying about which flashlight to get. Plenty of skilled practitioners have used a standard SureFire 6P successfully for many yearrs prior to all of these fancy, high-lumen LED lights. First, learn how to conduct an indoor search. It will probably convince you that a solo search is an ugly affair and something you should really do only in extremis, such as rescuing/retrieving a loved one down the hall during a "hot" entry. Otherwise, it is better to get behind hard cover and control the limited access points (e.g., doorway to your bedroom) for someone to reach your position.

In the priorities of survival, it is mindset/awareness, tactics, skill with your equipment, and then equipment itself. But gear is fun and often tends to jump to the #1 priority.

Excellent post Justin :thumbsup:

Justin Case said:

First, ceiling bounce is a very common illumination technique in indoor search. It helps to avoid dazzling your own vision from bounceback. It also helps to provide wider illumination even for non-flood beam patterns.

Second, if we assume that you are talking about solo indoor search (e.g., a homeowner investigating the proverbial bump in the night), then you are probably looking at a deliberate (or slow) search, not a dynamic one.

Thus, you are well advised to avoid being caught in the open, beyond cover, before you've cleared a particular area. In addition, it is far easier to search a slice of space at a time, rather than the entire volume of a room. You simply can't take in all of the information and process it in a useful and safe fashion. You should be using pieing techniques for you deliberate search.

There are also certain illumination techniques that are more confusing for anyone who is hiding to figure out where the searcher is located, based on the perceived source of light and the illumination pattern.

What this means is that the wall of light is really not as useful or necessary as it may seem theoretically.

More important than all of the above, however, is if you don't know anything about indoor search, then you are putting the cart before the horse in worrying about which flashlight to get. Plenty of skilled practitioners have used a standard SureFire 6P successfully for many yearrs prior to all of these fancy, high-lumen LED lights. First, learn how to conduct an indoor search. It will probably convince you that a solo search is an ugly affair and something you should really do only in extremis, such as rescuing/retrieving a loved one down the hall during a "hot" entry. Otherwise, it is better to get behind hard cover and control the limited access points (e.g., doorway to your bedroom) for someone to reach your position.

In the priorities of survival, it is mindset/awareness, tactics, skill with your equipment, and then equipment itself. But gear is fun and often tends to jump to the #1 priority.

Click to expand...

Very well said! It's nice to know that most of the training I picked up way-back-when is still current and relavant. Bouncing the light off the ceiling is a great way to check bathroom stalls!

The last time I did a building search, I was using a Streamlight Stinger, focussed to a tight spot. Still plenty of spill though. I felt it did an adequate job. Most of the time, I used short, controlled bursts of light rather than leaving the light on any amount of time. I didn't want my flashlight to make me someone's target!

My current duties don't require me to do this kind of thing hardly at all. However, I think I would prefer the nice bright spot of my G2Z w/M60 for better throw in larger, longer rooms and also ourdoors. The M60 would be better for blinding a suspect if you actually found one. The M60F would disperse the light over a larger area and not be as blinding to the bad guy.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I think Justin Case was right, though. When it comes to something like this, technique and training are more important than the tool you use.

-- Frank

The treatise on searching notwithstanding , I realize I framed my question improperly by using the term "search." A better way to term this would be how does the M60F do for general LEO utility purposes?

The scenario being that you've made contact with the subject(s) in a darkened area, be it a residence, vehicle, front yard, whatever; and you need to be able to see and take in the surroundings. You want to be able to clearly observe the subject's activities without having to pan around with the light. Assume some amount of ambient light. Also thinking in terms of locating inanimate items (contraband) in darkened areas. Last but not least, thinking in terms of having to press this light into use during a fight.

An LEO can find himself in a variety of different situations where a flood may have advantages over a thrower, or vice versa. For example, searching for evidence in a city park after dark in the grass, I would probably prefer a flood. Searching a vehicle, something low-powered like a MiniMag.

But if searching for a potentially violent suspect, I would probably prefer a good thrower for the reasons mentioned above.

The task really does dictate the tool. But since most LEO's don't carry two or three lights, they usually compromise with a thrower with good spill. Look what has been used in recent years before LEDs: MagChargers, Streamlight SL-20, Streamlight Stingers, SureFire 6P, MiniMags as a backup. Most of these have good throw and a decent spill.

This is just my opinion and please feel free to pick it apart. For general use on duty, I prefer something with a really good throw and decent spill, but maybe that's because it's what I am used to. If it had a low power setting to boot, all the better. My current choice is a SF w/Malkoff M60 on my belt and a 1AA backup in my shirt pocket (NDI, D10, L1D, etc). But my current duties are not the same as a typical patrol officer.


-- Frank

Not sure what you mean when you ask about pressing the light into use during a fight. If it is you in the fight, then I'd say that I'd use the light as an expedient impact weapon and hit the offender. I wouldn't care in the least what my beam pattern is. If you want to illuminate some other people fighting, then I'd say that the requirements are similar to your contact scenario. I'd want a light that had an intense hot spot that was wide enough to cover the subject completely (plus perhaps with a little extra to account for subject movement) so that I can light up his face (for blinding effect), yet still see his hands and waist (weapon-bearing platform). I'd probably want that capability at a minimum range of the proverbial 7 yds and out past 25 yds. For outdoor contraband search in a field, I'd have to accept whatever I can get with the previous, much more non-negotiable criterion. Thus, as Frank says, get a good thrower with decent spill.

IMO, the most important factor for a flashlight in terms of helping you to dominate and win an encounter is the light's ability to hinder your opponent's OODA loop. And that starts with blinding him. And my #1 priority is winning, especially without injury to myself. All else, such as searching for contraband, is supplemental.

BigD64 said:

M60F is the "new" L4. The old "Wall of Light" is now out shined.

Click to expand...

That's how I would nearly describe it and couldn't have said it any better. For indoor room to room, I like going with the M60F since it suits my particular needs for the near to medium range proximics. Of course, Your Methods May Vary accordingly.

Re: Malkoff M60F versus ??? Beamshots

I prefer to make my beamshots at the range to evaluate how well I can see targets off to the side of the one that is lit up. I borrowed a camera with manual exposure override and took all of these pics using F4.0 and 2.5 second exposure. I was back 37 feet from the targets and so was the camera. So the light is going 37 feet to light up the dingy range backstop and some targets and coming back to the camera. This setting is very close to what I was seeing with my eyes.

You be your own judge as to what you like.


This is reference shot of the 5 targets with the house lights on. The range is 25 feet across.


The Malkoff M60F in a Solarforce L2 host with 1 extension running on 2 17500 batteries (new and freshly charged). I have measured this unit at work in the Integration Sphere at 202 Lumens actual output through the glass. Camera F4.0 and 2.5 second exposure for this and all the rest.



This is the Solarforce L2 with 1 extension and the Cree R2 LED. Also using 2 17500 batteries. I have measured this specific unit at 190 Lumens. It has a great hot spot and because its very bright I can still see the other targets in the spill but not as well as with the Malkoff M60F. This is where no camera image has the depth of sensitivity of the human eye. I could see the targets better in each case better than what the pictures portray. But in this relative comparison, the camera does show the differences.


This is one of the same 2 Solarforce L2 hosts that I have with an extension and the 17500 battery pair, with the Solarforce brand Cree Q5. Its measured output is only in the 150 Lumen range. Hard to tell on the dingy backplate and targets but its color temperature on a white wall is a little warmer than the others. Regardless of that its harder to see the targets on the far ends.


This is my best surprise so far. This was a Browning Black Ice 9V Xenon Light that I converted to a Solarforce R2. Using 3 low budget RCR123 batteries from Lighthound.com. This baby consistently reads 200 lumens in the Integration Sphere at work. I don't know if its just this specific pill or the fact that I wrapped it in a lot of aluminum foil to make good contact to the shell and its contact resistance is better than those that use the 0uter spring as its not in there. I like the mid body button feature as well but that's another story. Notice that you can see the outside targets a little better than the other R2 and Q5


This is the Fenix T1 with 2 Delkin "3.0V" Rechargeables. I have measured this unit in the Integration sphere at 225 Lumens. Its had some run time on it. Last time I measured it was 220 lumens. Your gonna say, not much detectable diffence to the R2 units, and that would be a very true statement. The difference I saw with the naked eye was not much. Beam pattern on a white wall is a little prettier but that is not important. I want to see whats lurking behind door #5, not artifacts.


And for the finale is the Solarforce L2 host with 1 extension running the Lumens Factory 320 Lumen HO-9 using a pair of the 17500 batteries. Actual measured output of this thing using the battery set in IS was only 180 lumens. Current draw was 1.6 Amps Voltage at that level was around 8V. This is somewhere in the 12 Plus watt range. The beam pattern is actually very narrow and the targets on the end are darkest with this light.

I have another battery pack that will not fit any of these flashlight hosts. Its a series parallel combination of 4 18650's charged to 9V peak. Measured Voltage and Current put it up over 14 watts. Haven't measured the Lumens yet, just built the battery pack. I can see its brighter but even with that extra oomph it just doesn't light up the span across the 5 targets as well as the others.

The Maglight with its tight focused beam and poor spill even with a 150 Lumens rated Electrolumens head was atrocious. So I didn't bother to bring it for this second test. (I measured 140 lumens from the LED without the head installed as it would not fit into IS.)

I love the Malkoff M60F. but any other of the D26 style pills with 200 lumens or more and an orange peel reflector to enhance the spill are effective.

So its up to you in your specific application. Do you want to blind your main target and possibly have weak light to determine what else is going on along the periphery or do you want to see most of the area well at first glance to make a better quicker assessment of the situation. Its easier for me having done this repeatedly to assess all 5 targets with the flood than the glare of the bright hotspots/lower spill lights.

In conjuction with a handgun its much faster and easier to be on target with the light and see that gun sights are lined up using the Malkoff M60F than anything else.

But to each his own. I hope this helps. :thumbsup:

If not I still get to have lots of fun shooting at that range with these lights.

Thanks for the great beamshots. My opinion on the M60F is identical to yours. Since the day I received it, it has become favorite P60 drop-in.