Photovoltaic Array coming soon!

OK, Brock wanted me to post about my up-coming PV array, so here's what I know so far:

Inverter: SMA America - SWR2500U-SBD
Panels: (20) BP Solar 150W modules
AC Output 2.5 kW
Production: 351 kWh/month average

That 351 kWh/month = 4,212/year. With that 4,212 kWh of fuel, I can drive about 12,500 miles (which just happens to be within 1000 miles of what we put on the EV1 last year). I bring these numbers up to make the financing more interesting.

So I recently refinanced our home mortgage, and took out additional cash for this project. The amount I took out is costing me $78.63 per month to finance (yes, more than I'd guessed earlier - I actually did the math this time). At the rate I'll be selling the electricity back to my power company, the 351 kWh will take $77.22 off my electricity bill.

Grand total: $1.41/month, on average, for our commute car to travel about 1,050 miles. Or $17 to travel 12,500 miles per year. But wait... there's more. This all presupposes that I buy the electricity for the same price I sell it. Not so. I sell it at peak and partial peak times for almost THREE times what I pay for it during off peak - when 99% of my charging is done. Just to avoid the complicated math, I'm going to suggest that I'll be driving with NO fuel cost for quite some time.

And THAT, my friends, is a beautiful thing.

wow!

that sounds great!

It looks as though you're very accomplished at working the system and double dipping...

Mark

[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
It looks as though you're very accomplished at working the system and double dipping...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Mark.

Not really sure how to respond here, but I'll give it a shot since you took the trouble to post. You obviously think that I am "getting away" with something here. Or that I have somehow managed to compel others to pay my way. Missing, I think, is the concept that I am possibly performing a public service. That I'm helping my electric utility be more efficient, that I'm reducing pollution in my state, that I'm lowering the necessity for my country to fight and pay for oil rights. If there were 25,000 EV drivers who generated their own electricity, we could take one average power plant off-line. You can't even put a price tag on that kind of benefit.

If you are buying gasoline, you are taking advantage of the huge federal tax breaks that oil companies receive. Do you feel as if you're "working the system?" Yes, through the IRS, I am subsidizing your gasoline. And for my money, I get your pollution, and our country's dependence on oil. The federal government is NOT subsidizing my electricity nor my sunshine. Because of that fact alone, I don't think I'll lose much sleep over my state wanting me to produce my own electricity for the general good.

The incentives that I am being offered are put in place to inspire people to do exactly what I'm doing. Much like tax deductions for donations to charity. Heck, even sale prices at the store are the same idea. The store wants you to come in the doors, so they're willing to make less profit on an item. The incentives that I am receiving are available to everybody, right out there in the open, with no fanagling of the system required. If you own a home, are you taking a tax deduction for your mortgage interest? Is that taking advantage of the system, or just playing by the rules? What I'm doing is much the same thing, but I'm actually benefitting OTHERS as much as I'm benefitting myself. I wonder who you think I'm taking advantage of.

For the record, I am not "working the system" nor am I "double dipping." I am doing what I believe in, and I am being offered financial assistance to so. Nothing is being handed to me, and I'm certainly not being compensated for my time and effort. I understand that nothing I type here will likely sway your thinking.

I am truly sorry that you feel the way you do.

[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
It looks as though you're very accomplished at working the system and double dipping...

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though Darell wrote a very good defense, or explanation of his position, I'm not so sure the responsibility is on him to do so. Although, knowing Darell, even though only slightly, he will make use of your comments to educate us even more.

However, I'd feel that you have a greater obligation to defend the logic of your accusation.

Darell,
"double dipping" ? Can't be sure what Minjin meant, but you are very kind to explain the details so concisely and patiently..
..amazing numbers, makes me wish I were grid-tied so I could buy back my discounted watts at night!
..I'm makling so much more electricity with the sun higher in the sky these days, alot of the time the batteries are full and the watts from the array are just wasted, unless I roast coffee, vacuum, make waffles, and run power tools while the sun shines.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
added: I see you went with the "Sunny boy' brand of inverters -- I just checked them out; I had no idea they were available in a watertight, stainless, outdoor design. I had thought Outback were the only ones doing that, the Sunnyboy is definitely a contender for my next inverter -- someday, after the insects and lizards crawl into my Trace's air vents..

[ QUOTE ]
TedtheLed said:
and the watts from the array are just wasted, unless I roast coffee, vacuum, make waffles, and run power tools while the sun shines.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed. I've heard similar tales of woe from friends who've had to turn in their off-lease EV1, and their array (sized for the house AND the car) is just handing the utility free energy. The utility only lets you go to zero - you don't get money back for excess generation (the main reason I kept my system small). Since there are no production EVs to be purchased right now, my friends are looking at running an extension cord over to the neighbors...

oh! you mean you can sell them only as many kwh's (kilowatt/hours /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) as you use in a month? I didn't realize that..bummer!..when you say your friends want to run an extension cord over to the neighbor's, you mean to sell them their excess daytime watts??

[ QUOTE ]
TedtheLed said:
oh! you mean you can sell them only as many kwh's (kilowatt/hours /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) as you use in a month? I didn't realize that..bummer!..when you say your friends want to run an extension cord over to the neighbor's, you mean to sell them their excess daytime watts??

[/ QUOTE ]
Good catch, Mr. kWh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Our generation/usage net is averaged over the entire year, so if we generate more in the summer, but use more in the winter, we're still OK. That makes it better than month-to-month, but yes, at the end of the year if we have generated more than we have used, we end up donating that surplus power to the utility. And they don't even send us a Christmas card. By law, we aren't even supposed to be able to install a system that will generate more than we can use. They're happy with us being self-sufficiently clean, but they seem to draw the line at allowing us to add excess clean power to the grid. I'm sure there is some good political reason for this - but it escapes me right now.

The exention cord was to allow the neighbors to use clean power for FREE. What better way to be a nice nieghbor and citizen?

Darrel has spoken in the past of how he's able to charge up his million dollar EV at public charging stations for free. Now he's talking about selling that power back?? I call that double dipping.

I find the EV topic somewhat interesting, as well as energy conservation. Its nice that Darrel and others have completely characterized me from a single line of text.

Mark

oh I see, thanks for the clarification. noo problem with them giving away otherwise wasted energy - it don't wear out the panels none!
..probably I'll be looking into 12 volt water heater elements some day soon as a place for those homeless watts to play; I still am thinking about using hot water to heat the house at night, (even if I don't install that radiant heat floor tubing..)

[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
Darrel has spoken in the past of how he's able to charge up his million dollar EV at public charging stations for free. Now he's talking about selling that power back?? ..........
..........
Mark



[/ QUOTE ]

I must be missing something here. Darell is filling his car up with free electricity and then selling the electricity out of his car back??? I guess with electrons you atleast don't need to suck them up to get a siphon going... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

- Don

Not to mention the electricity from the "free" charging station will not show on his bill, so it is automaticly excluded for re-selling it back to the powercompany... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Darell said:
The utility only lets you go to zero - you don't get money back for excess generation (the main reason I kept my system small).

[/ QUOTE ]

Mark, first I have to comment on how we "have completely characterized me from a single line of text". Did we take what you said the wrong way? It looked to me like a personal attack on Darell, are we wrong?

However I know what you're saying, I used to feel the same way. I felt taking advantage of government sponsored programs was in a way like taking something that didn't belong to me. To be honest, Darell had a lot to do with changing my mind with the information he shared. You have to look at the big picture, if Calif. didn't offer those free charging stations the EV's would never have existed in the first place, so if Darell never used them (not sure if he did) the whole program would look even more like a failure then it is currently portrayed (sorry Darell). I see it like Darell is trying to support what was being done, sort of like beating a path, unfortunately no one wants us to follow that path. Are we taking advantage of the government by using the post office, or other government sponsored programs? Like I said I used to think so, now I have come to accept it as the way of things. The government chooses to do this for a reason, sometimes I wonder why, but they did not Darell.

As for selling power back, I don't think it is technically sold back, it is a credit. Think of the grid as a battery, when Darell gets lots of sun he puts the power in to the grid, eliminates his load at peak times and actually supply's power when it is needed most, then later, at night he takes the power back out of the grid.

Believe me this isn't about making money, you can't. At best you could break even with the power bill, and you still have to pay all the fees for having the service.

So do you have any batteries for backup? If so do you use the same inverter, or is the SB going to be specifically grid tied?

What is the solar array's voltage? I would guess the SB has a MPPT sort of thing built in?

Wow, 3kw of solar panels right now I have a puny 210w. But that is enough to keep my batteries topped off and run my fridge and freezer on peak during the day. I really want to add another 300w or solar so I can run them 24 hours on solar, but that would be $1200, and my wife convinced me to pay more off on the new car instead.

Boy you guys snuck those in on me.

No, no, no. Darell isn't charging up his EV from free charging stations and selling the power back. You can't do that, I mean you probably could, but that is not what he is doing. We did talk about using EV's batteries to peak shave, but he isn't doing that.

Darell I think people are getting confused by your system. I would try to explain it more, but don't want to get it wrong.

I understand Darell has placed, at a cost of aproximately 6 cents per foot, 2,345 feet of zip cord running from the free electric vehicle charging station in the beach parking lot near his house, directly to his grid-tied SB inverter, for a total cost of $170.40.. at 10 cents per kWh paid by the utility, this will net him $2.40 a day, of pure profit (after 71 days to pay for the electric wire..)
..am I understanding this correctly?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif
ok, enough deliberate obfuscation for tonight.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepy.gif

Leaving solar cells out of the picture...

Lets say you use 5000 units of power per year. He has stated that you can sell back up to 5000 units, making your power free. Charging up from a free public charger, then selling the excess after a day's commute is certainly the same as money in the pocket. Granted, its more like in-store credit in that it can only be put toward paying for electricity used but its still free money. Thats where my first statement came from and this would certainly be double dipping and taking advantage of the system. Legal or not, its still distasteful. If Darrel isn't doing this, then good for him. However, he has certainly given the impression that he is.

As for characterizing, two direct quotes from Darrel:

"I understand that nothing I type here will likely sway your thinking. "
...so I'm not capable of learning or changing my mind.

"I am truly sorry that you feel the way you do. "
...so I'm deserving of pity.

Was I attacking Darrel? Some people would take my comment as a compliment. It seems to be a matter of whether you believe "working the system" as a phrase should have negative connotations or not. Brock posted above that he believes it should not.

And thats the difference of opinion here.

Mark

you forget the near 100% losses in a run of zipcord 1/2 mi long.
payback approaches infinity!
but some worms will stay warm along the wire /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
TedtheLed said:
I understand Darell has placed, at a cost of aproximately 6 cents per foot, 2,345 feet of zip cord running from the free electric vehicle charging station in the beach parking lot near his house, directly to his grid-tied SB inverter, for a total cost of $170.40.. at 10 cents per kWh paid by the utility, this will net him $2.40 a day, of pure proft (after 71 days to pay for the electric wire..)
..am I understanding this correctly?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif
ok, enough deliberate obfuscation for tonight.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

congratulations Darrel.
i am in process of setting up a mess of pv's here too.
i already have 300w worth up there and my neighbors thought i was nuts till we had a big outage due to a storm.
3000ah@12v and 2000ah@24v will run things quite a while here.