(Big 3) x 2

o0o

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We've already lost the big 3 brewers (Bud, Coors, Miller). They're now at least partially foreign owned.

With that said, some financial sites are predicting that at least ONE of the big 3 automakers will be lost in the next 5 years. Some even predict that 2 may be lost (Ford and Chrysler are the favorites to crumble).

It seems that American products are dying. I happen to like the styling of Ford (retro Mustang, F150) and Chrysler (Dodge Ram, Dodge Charger, Dodge Challenger, Chrysler 300) much better than the cookie cutter stuff that IMO GM is putting out--has anyone seeing their latest ugly pregnant roller skate cars (Aveo, Beat etc).

Are we seeing the the death of the US auto industry as we know it?

I haven't bought a US vehicle in a long time, mostly due to reliability concerns (the last Cadillac I owned was a piece of junk that spend more time at the shop than on the road). Can the US auto industry rebound?
 

o0o

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Well what can you do, they all sew the seed of their downfall themselves.

I would agree.

The reliability issues in the mid 70s through early 90s really hurt the US auto reputation. Even today, I still consider the Japanese to make higher quality (and more relialbe) vehicles on average.
 

Wattnot

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The reliability issues in the mid 70s through early 90s really hurt the US auto reputation. Even today, I still consider the Japanese to make higher quality (and more relialbe) vehicles on average.

Now it's virtually the other way around. The worst vehicle I evered owned was my first Toyota, a 2005. However, the tide of popular opinion turns so slow that the American companies might already be gone before everyone realizes the Japaneese cars aren't as good as they used to be.
 

270winchester

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it's well known that some japanese cars suffer chronically from quality issues, such as Suzuki, Mitsubishi, and Isuzu, and to an extent, Subaru.


We have three Toyotas, all of them made in the US. Now why should I pay money to buy a car made in Canada or Mexico that wears a logo that somewhere along the line started in the US? Why should I buy a "Chevy" built in Mexico when I can buy a Toyota built in Kentucky?

take Chevys for example:
Aveo: it's a Daewoo Kalos, made in Korea.
Impala: made in Canada,
Avalanche: made in Mexico
HHR: Mexico.
Equinox: Canada.
Silverado: made in Canada and Mexico

that's just a partial list. Let's not get started with Fords. Lincoln Towncars are now made in Canada, Crown Vics, yes, CROWN VICS, are made in Canada. THe ones that are assembled here often use foreign made components. Heck even the Hemi engine that Dodge is so proud of is made in Saltillo Engine plant in Mexico. Guess where Dodge Chargers are made...yep, Canada. PT cruisers are made in Mexico, 300's are made in Canada, so are Pacificas, along with a large portion of Town and Country's.

I will not bore you folks with more examples. You get the idea.
 
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o0o

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it's well known that some japanese cars suffer chronically from quality issues, such as Suzuki, Mitsubishi, and Isuzu, and to an extent, Subaru.

When I think Japanese, the three that come to mind for consistent quality are Honda, Toyota, and Nissan (not necessarily in this order). I like Subaru, but don't consider them in the top 3 Japanese. I wouldn't touch Suzuki, Mitsubishi, and Isuzu with a 1,000 foot poles...

In terms of America cars made in Mexico or Canada... well, that is an easy choice. I'd much rather have them made in Canada. Practically everything I've owned that was made in Mexico has been junk. Just IMO, YMMV.
 

270winchester

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In terms of America cars made in Mexico or Canada... well, that is an easy choice. I'd much rather have them made in Canada.


a lot of my family lost their livelihood when GM, Ford and Chrysler moved production to Canada back in the 70s. They weren't working in auto plants so they didn't get the benefit of UAW protection, but the loss of jobs impacted the steel plants, glass factories and rubber plants. I'm not buying any of the cars made there.

THe rule of thumb for me: if it isn't built in America, it is not an American car, even if it wears a logo that originated in the States.
 
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jtr1962

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Are we seeing the the death of the US auto industry as we know it?

I haven't bought a US vehicle in a long time, mostly due to reliability concerns (the last Cadillac I owned was a piece of junk that spend more time at the shop than on the road). Can the US auto industry rebound?
I'll go out on a limb and say no but my reasoning is rather convoluted. First off, I don't think any of the big three will survive long term. They hedged their bets for their near future on large, boxy vehicles and internal combustion engines. There really wasn't any long-term planning save the ill-fated promise of fuel-cell vehicles at some indeterminant future date. To be sure, the automakers don't have a monoploy on lack of long-term planning. Rather, it's the way we train CEOs these days-head a new corporation, make changes to encourage short-term profitability, leave for your next job before the negative results of your changes come to pass, let the next guy pick up the pieces. So many viable businesses have been run right into the ground this way.

Getting back to the lack of planning, anyone with half a brain could have foreseen a decade ago that fossil fuel production more or less was going to peak soon, and demand from industrializing countries was going to increase. Point of fact I wrote about stuff like this on other forums shortly after 9/11. My conclusions were a natural result of the facts I had read. Fuel wasn't going to suddenly run out, but the factors I mentioned meant it would rapidly increase in price. Now if I knew this six or seven years ago by just casually reading publicly available information, I'll bet my last dollar the automakers and oil companies knew about it 15, perhaps even 20 years ago.

So my question is why wasn't long range planning done? Instead of embracing the EV1 program GM was practically dragged kicking and screaming into it. Fact is all of the automakers should have been pursuing an electric vehicle program from the early 1990s irrespective of whether or not there were zero emissions laws, and whether or not cheap gasoline existed at the time. Even if the cars they made wouldn't have sold as well as their other ones, they would have hedged their bets for a future they knew was coming. The Japanese do this all the time. They do basic R&D to get things into production which may not be fully realized for a generation. Had they put forth the needed development, they could have starting phasing out internal combustion engine vehicle production when gas prices started upwards a few years ago. Better yet, a large part of the vehicles on the road today would have been electric. This in turn would have meant higher fuel prices would be having a much smaller impact. Even at the time of $1.50 per gallon gas electric vehicles were more economical to operate (and cheaper to build if mass-produced). They would have made sense for many even a decade ago. However, putting the needed resources into electric vehicle development would have resulted in reduced short-term profits (but greater long-term profits). Since CEOs seemingly can't think past the next quarter, it was business as usual. Ditto for the heavy ad campaigns to convince everyone that they had to have an SUV instead of a car. Since SUVs are exempt from mileage and most emissions standards they were more profitable. Their easier to manufacture boxy but aerodynamically inefficient shape further added to their profitability. It's a fitting irony that the automakers now have lots full of SUVs they can't sell.

Anyway, IMHO the factors I mentioned, along with the UAW, have put the big three into a hole they'll never get out of. They just can't produce the type of vehicles needed in the time frame needed. And to make things worse, they poured billions into a hopeless technology-namely fuel cells, gambling that batteries for battery-electric cars would never get better than the lead-acid of 20 years ago. Looks like they lost that bet big-time as well. Fuel cells are in essence just a very inefficient, very complex battery. They offer no advantage to the consumer over batteries at this point. The only advantage they offer is to the automaker's spare parts business, and they also allow continued branding of fuel, probably by the same companies now selling gasoline. Electric vehicles on the other hand aren't tied to one carefully controlled fuel source. That's their strength to the consumer but their weakness to big business.

OK, so who will we see producing automobiles in America in the future if not the big three? Probably small companies each focusing on a niche market such as Tesla Motors. These companies have no prior investment in gasoline-engine production facilities, and certainly no informal relationship with big oil. Their sole purpose is to make electric cars the consumer will want to buy. I think it's no coincidence that the majority of previous attempts at either electric vehicles or economy gas cars by many automakers (not just in the US) are basically just glorified golf carts. They really didn't want to make these vehicles at all but had to because of mileage/emissions requirements. By purposely making them unappealing they could say look, we tried, but it doesn't sell so we're going to make muscle cars and SUVs. The EV1 is probably the only exception to this in recent history.

So what will the future look like? Probably a lot like the past when there were many smaller automobile manufacturers instead of the big three, and probably mostly electric vehicles but with a small number of gas ones for niche uses. And in many ways the consumer will be the better for it. My observations are that past a certain size, companies lose both efficiency and the ability to respond rapidly to changing consumer demands. It's almost like a large corporation is a world unto itself, often far removed from the reality of the consumers who ultimately pay the bills.
 

Black Rose

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I have a first year Chevy HHR, assembled in Mexico.

It's the best GM vehicle I have owned since I started buying GM cars in 1989. It's much better built than the cars I had that came out of Lordstown or Lansing. The engine is assembled in Tennessee and the transmission is from Ontario.

As far as I'm concerned, if the world headquarters of a car manufacturer is not on North American soil, it's a foreign car.

Again, YMMV.
 

InTheDark

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IMO, the line between foreign and domestic automakers has been blurred into a fuzzy, almost non-existant line. There are no longer American car companies, or foreign car companies, just american-sounding names on the badge. I've always wondered, how patriotic is it to support a company where all the profits are going to a few select millionares, rather than one who is supporting thousands of average american workers? Take Ford for example. Even after losing $1 billiion dollars and cutting 35,000 american jobs, Bill Ford decides he's going to reduce his pay to only $13 million. How kind hearted of him. Not to mention the other top executives still collecting their millions of dollars during some of the biggest losses in automotive history. I'd love to support the American car industry, but it makes it really hard to justify spending more money for an inferior product just so a couple of CEO's can continue to cut jobs and save their own salary.

The Big 3 entered the death spiral a few years ago. The upper managment at the Big 3 knew it was coming, but didn't want to risk their comfortable multimillion dollar paychecks and make an effort to change. It's finally catching up with them, but unfortunately it may already be too late. Up until just a couple years ago, they were still adamant in their position that fuel efficient compact cars weren't profitable, rather, they stubbornly continued to churn out the huge trucks that they're known for and offer ridiculous fuel incentives to get them to sell. Instead of listening to what the customers want and make something to fit the demand (which happens to be fuel efficiency), they decided to make what the want and try and force it upon the consumers. The patriotic marketing can only work for so long, eventually the people are going to wise up.

Even today, where are their hybrid cars from the biggest automotive manufacturer? GM is just starting to come out onto the market this year, after Honda and Toyota have been selling theirs for nearly a decade. And yet still they miss the market. It doesn't take a genius to see that people are moving towards smaller, more fuel efficient cars, but GM decides to release a hybrid Yukon and Tahoe, which get basically the same mileage as the previous non-hybrid versions. And they still can't figure out why they're losing money? I know some people will argue that the hybrid technology isn't the answer, the cost doesn't justify the fuel savings, etc. My point is that the product or technology really doesn't matter, it's what the people want. The fact that these companies haven't been able to supply the people with what they want is the bigger problem

I also agree that the quality of the top 2 japanese car companies (honda/toyota) has been going downhill for the past decade, while the quality of the domestic cars has improved dramatically. Ironically, that's also around the same time Honda/Toyota started manufacturing in the U.S, while the Big 3 started outsourcing. Coincidence?
 
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