Syria?

Iraq, I can understand. There's more than just one justification for ousting Hussein.

Syria, well, I'm not too sure about. Yeah, they support Hezbollah or other terrorist groups. They have WMD? Well, the CIA says so, but this is the CIA.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

But does this country really warrant being attacked right now? Especially right after we're barely even done with major offensive ops against Iraq and still haven't even stabalized that country yet?

I'm generally pretty supportive of Bush in the war against Iraq, but I think slamming Syria into a crater after Iraq falling may be a bit too much, at least right now. I can understand scare tactics to prevent Syria from spiraling into another Iraq or the Taliban, but trying to play a psychological game with political fanfare, especially at this time, isn't a really good idea, IMHO.

The tough talk, even if unintentional, is starting to make us look like warmongerers. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif

One war, it's bad enough. Two in 1 year? Not looking good...

Don't worry FalconFX, we're not going to attack Syria unless they do something amazingly stupid.

They need to grow up a little though. They are getting away with some things that have always pissed the US off but we've not really been in a position to do anything about it. With all our troops there we're not actually threatening to go and invade them, but it does offer a unique leverage point for us to make some sweeping statements and to put a little fear into them, which can only be a good thing.

It's politics, thats all. I would be very surprised if President Bush were to start sweeping through the middle east. He does have an agenda there. I think he wants to be known as the fellow who brought peace to the region. Watch closely now what happens, it's going to be interesting to say the least...

terrorist attacked the us and killed thousands. syria aids and harbors known terrorists. they were smuggling supplies into iraq to aid the iraqi army in killing or service men and women. i couldn't give a **** if they have wmd or not. after 9/11 bush said you're with us or against us, pick a side. if that makes me a warmonger whoopty freakin doo.

nest stop, syria. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif

we'll be set up in iraq after the country is stabilized. the weather will be optimum. i expect us to roll over syria the same time next year. or atleast a huge bombing/spec ops campaign.

Damascus in Syria is known to have the largest and most advanced CW capability in the Middle East. It recieved most of its chemicals and equipment from the former Soviet Union and of all places Egypt (yes they have and have used them against Yemeni Royalist forces in the 1960's and have yet to ratify their signing of the CWC) and has recieved some of it's formulas from Russian dissidents and may have even recieved the formula for Novichok (the most deadly form of nerve agent which is supposedly able to penetrate all western manufactured NBC protective gear) from a former Soviet General and chemical dissarmament advisor to Boris Yeltsin. I have seen satellite pictures of the Al Safir Chemical Weapons plant (which is ringed with AAA installations as well as a SAM site and a SCUD missile base for air raid protection) it has above ground weapons storage and a tunnel entrance to underground facilities as well and is located in the northern part of Syria near the Turkish border (there is purportedly another facility of this magnitude in Homs). Two other really disturbing potentials exist about Syria also A) Chemical Weapons owned by Iraq have probably been smuggled into Syria by Saddam Hussein in order to escape detection/destruction by UNSCOM inspectors (We know for a fact that in 1991 Saddam asked for and recieved permission from Umar al-Bashir President of Sudan to transport and store Bio/Chem weapons in that country to avoid destruction and Syria is an even closer ally to Iraq geographically). B) that Syria has never signed the Chemical Weapons Convention stating by that mere fact that it does not agree to abide by it and has even gone as far as tipping a quarter to half of it's 800 SCUD missile inventory with Sarin and VX warheads and posted them on it's border facing Israel (who has repeatedly warned the government of Syria that any hostile launching of said CB weapons would meet an immediate nuclear retaliation). As you can see pretty nasty situation brewing over there and we haven't even stated talking about Sudan, Libya, Egypt (who we claim are our buds), Iran etc. There is literally tons of info on all of this stuff that will never make it to the mass media because they don't actually pay attention to this stuff enough to put together a decent dossier (probably to busy primping for the camera or slanting their reporting with freeform editorializing. I posted alot of this info at the begining of the year prior to the war, and there's plenty more. We should be worried because despite what all the Middle Eastern govt's say they are pretty subversively against us and even their legitimate govt's can be cowed by the rule of Islamic Law that may refute our best efforts to democratize the region simply by the fact that we are not Muslim and therefore not guided by Allah's will. Pray we win this battle.

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I would hope that just the veiled threats would make Syria line up a bit.

Some special ops, and maybe a smart bomb or two MAY be called for....

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Israel (who has repeatedly warned the government of Syria that any hostile launching of said CB weapons would meet an immediate nuclear retaliation).

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Must have missed the bit where Israel publicly announced it was a nuclear power. Moredichi Vanunu must be doing 20 years plus pretty pointlessly for blowing the whistle on something that the Iraelis are up front about then..........

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Sudan, Libya, Egypt (who we claim are our buds), Iran etc

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Saudi Arabia and Kuwait well known homes of democracy and free thougt of course, er , not.

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refute our best efforts to democratize the region simply by the fact that we are not Muslim

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Try thinking back 20 years and changing `democratise` to `communise` and see a parralel.

No, we are not Muslim and it`s not our country or culture, does Damascus really need a pile of Mickey Ds springing up?

Don`t see any of you Americans reckoning action should be taken in Zimbabwe or Indonesia or to chase the Chinese out of Tibet.Let you do your own speculation on the reasons its a three letter word beginning with O....

The U.K. was once called the unsinkable aircraft carrier by an American general, it seems central to the U.S. policy of fighting wars everywhere but domestically.

The new form of warfare is called assymetric, it just takes some religious nutters and the most basic of weapons, like a box cutter. Terrorism is new to the U.S. but regrettably it may become a more common feature.

Adam

Remember not too long ago we destroyed a chemical weapons plant in Khartoum in Sudan (disguised as a pharmaceutical factory) with cruise missiles and caught alot of heat from the world community until it was proven to be owned and operated by Osama Bin Laden himself. These countries are dangerous, dangerous, dangerous to western democratic govts. Libya is providing arms to Islamic insurgents in the battles along the Ivory coast and alot of them are definitely fueling Al Quaeda with supplies and comfort, something that liberals for some God awful reason are in complete denial over, how much evidence does one really need! Weapons were not just falling out of the sky into the arms of Islamic militants (most of which from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and are Al Quaeda trained and led) in northern Iraq, they were coming from Baghdad in government registered trucks in plain view of Kurdish Freedom fighters, and still Liberals are saying that isn't enough evidence to link Al Quaeda trained terrorists to the Iraqi gov't . It just boggles the mind.

Now try investigating the rapidly growing armies of Islamic militants springing up in Southeast Asia. Whew, That's a whole other ball of wax!

Deep poop we're in now since Islamic political influence and fundamentalism has risen increasingly in the third world fueled by Islamic support in the ancestral centers and by the proliferation of the Al Quaeda network. They have even taken to the internet by highjacking servers (without their knowledge of course) to host their hate filled sites and comunicate their orders. Bad news for us. Remember to a Muslim Islamic Law supercedes all other law so Democracy is at risk and Islamic Law as perceved by certain Mullahs and Clerics can be brutally discriminatory.

Later,
TSG

I never said that Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were democracys just stating who rates priority due to their possession of WMD and ability to distribute said weapons to terroristic organizations.

And for your information Yes I am painfully aware of the situation in Zimbabwe concerning the fact that the current regieme is forcing to become refugees and stripping farms bare and parceling land to it's cronies.

Simply because this thread is addressing one aspect of our problems in the region of the Middle East and northern Africa doesn't mean I am Ignorant or do not care what is going on in the rest of the world either.
Including South America, Persia (No Pakistan ain't our friends really either and they also are nuclear to the tune of at least 6 weapons last time I checked) South East Asia and the list goes on.

Regarding Israel, they can always deny what were covert threats to an overtly hostile country but we know what they got and where they made it including the fact that the peace loving French were very instrumental in the development and testing of their nuclear arms. Now South Africa has been their buddy on the nuclear front.

Yeah you're right about Communism not taking to the region either but I still want to destroy the chem/bio distribution to terrorists and don't worry China and North Korea may see a benefit to supplying terrorists against us too but I don't think they'd be able to control that gorilla either as it would probably eat their gov't alive too so they don't want to touch, it they don't want fundamental Islam either.

Ironic that you see us as using your country as a means to our end. Kind of like what your military used to do to colonial forces in places like Galipoli.

The Middle Eastern religious rule seems vaguely similar to the European Catholic influence in the middle ages except nobody asked anyone to blow themselves up back then and as you can see we some what got over it. Hmmm.. maybe this is how history unfolds Struggle with defeats and triumphs. I still want my freedoms and will fight to the death for them without trying to portray myself as morally superior.

Later,
TSG

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destroyed a chemical weapons plant in Khartoum in Sudan (disguised as a pharmaceutical factory)

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Had an interesting conversation with a couple of chemists and biologists on this subject. Your average pharma factory or indeed even a brewery can be very swiftly converted to bio weapons production.

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isn't enough evidence to link Al Quaeda trained terrorists to the Iraqi gov't

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Not an expert on Middle Eastern affairs, but, shouldn`t imagine there is any evidence linking the Iraqui Goverment with an Osama led Al Quaida.

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Islamic Law as perceved by certain Mullahs and Clerics

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It`s a matter of interpretation or perception, Bin Laden and Hussein`s interpretation or perception of Islam is diametrically opposed. They hate each other, there is absolutely no chance that one would be giving the other aid.

Again on a matter of interpretation, I`m sorry, but your posts read like an anti-Islam rant. This may or may not be as intended but it does read that way, to me, at the moment.

Adam

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that Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were democracys just stating who rates priority due to their possession of WMD and ability to distribute said weapons to terroristic organizations

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Should put Saudi Arabia at top of list then , surely, Osama is a Saudi national, Al Quaida have been training there and despite there huge border with Iraq and strategic importance to operations within Iraq everything is piped through Kuwait. Meanwhile everyone moans about Turkey dissallowing operations from their borders.......

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Ignorant or do not care what is going on in the rest of the world either.

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An attitude that is to be applauded and welcomed.

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Regarding Israel, they can always deny what were covert threats to an overtly hostile country but we know what they got and where they made it including the fact that the peace loving French were very instrumental in the development and testing of their nuclear arms. Now South Africa has been their buddy on the nuclear front.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again Moredichi Vanunu comes into the frame, UK`s own secret service had a lot to do with him being,er, re-patriated.French are not the most peace loving mob in the world, Rainbow Warrior anyone? Breaking nuclear test ban treaties as well. South Africa , well you`ve got to get the raw uranium from somewhere.

[ QUOTE ]
Ironic that you see us as using your country as a means to our end. Kind of like what your military used to do to colonial forces in places like Galipoli.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it`s how your country saw us as means to an end, when the threat was the Eastern Block and Europe the Theatre of War, its a quote from a US general. Hey us, the French the Ottomans, the Russians, the Chinese, the Japanese we all wanted an empire at one time or another. When Atlases in the 1890`s had large parts coloured pink and the sun never set on the British Empire.

Adam

I am not anti-Islamic just a little pissed about attacks that are led and justified by Muslim extremists because they see democracy as a threat to Islamic Law as they choose percieve it. I have several friends who are Muslims the first to come to mind is Palestinian and another is Nigerian.

I was being too general and as I said it is perception and manipulation. I have noticed quite a tendency for muslims of different factions and regions to take a rather unilateral stance against something if it is not of Islam (ie the Iranian support of the Taliban regieme during the U.S. invasion in spite of their bitter hatred of Afghani's) despite personal predjudices. Just an honest observation and one I could put to my friends without resentment (they are not extremist and are glad to offer opinions to my questions, they are good American citizens too.)


I do hope I haven't offended you and I would like to see peace but I also realise the rules of history pretty much prevent it and I have gotten rather preservationist and protective of my countries freedoms. That includes all of the expatriots who thrive here too. It's been rather fun debating someone too but other things need my attention so I gotta go!

Later,
TSG

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I am not anti-Islamic just a little pissed about attacks that are led and justified by Muslim extremists

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Thanks for the clarification, in parts of the U.K we suffer badly from sectarianism within the Christian faith, Northern Ireland being possibly the most extreme example, where the lines are drawn between Protestant and Catholic, and extrapolated to Loyalists and Republicans or in other parts of Britain, football teams.

Adam

I edited my above post please take a gander. Yeah we have the same types of rivalries here but they rarely end in bombings oh well, nice while it lasted!

Later,
TSG

No offence taken.

Not even attempting to understand the workings in Ireland, but at present a kind of strained peace has broken out, so one has to feel there is hope.

My grandfather, who was a Policeman and wouldn`t express any political views, used to say, the devil made his best work when he made politics....

Adam

I wish we could blame it on the Devil but it just seems to be mans own creation. I tend to think that despite our belief that we are somehow superior to our ancestors that we will never escape our own nature.

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

I wouldn't mind the US going after groups like Abbu Sayyaf, Hezbollah or Hamas, etc. Then, if countries like Syria does not cooperate in clamping down on the group, you can have military strikes against the government, a la the Taliban in Afghanistan. Right now, there's at least 8 countries in EuroAfroAsia that either has or is aquiring WMDs and BioChem weapons. What we're doing right now is virtually signalling that we're militarily going to strike each and every one of those nations. And I doubt we'll ever go back to the UN again. Which means for the most part, we're going at it alone militarily and politically, and our economy, as fragile as it is, is used to support it.

I just don't think the US is ready for another war right now. The nation was hesitant to support the war at first, getting behind it only after troops rolled into Iraq. US troops staying in the middle east for years on end won't feed a lot of happy sentiments, both abroad and at home.

Which country was the first to develop nuclear weapons ?

Which country has been the only one so far to use those nuclear weapons in a war (and on civilian targets at that) ?

Which country's people gave millions of dollars in funding to the IRA (a terrorist organisation) throughout the 70s and 80s, to mount attacks on civilian targets in the UK ?

Which country, under President Ronald Raygun, refused to sign up to a treaty banning chemical weapons ?

Which country funded and armed Saddam Hussein's regime in the 80s ?

Which country funded and armed both sides during the Iran/Iraq war ?

Which country funded a terrorist war against the democratically elected government of Nicaragua because they disagreed with it's politics ?

Which country trained and funded Osama Bin Laden in the 80s ?

Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs was a major reason for mounting the war against Saddam Hussein. So where are they ?

Which country has the largest stock of WMDs in the world today ?

After Iraq, then who ? Syria ? Korea ? Pakistan ? France ? Anyone else who disagrees ?

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Mr_Sesmesesles said:

After Iraq, then who ? Syria ? Korea ? Pakistan ? France ? Anyone else who disagrees ?

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with any luck, yes. not france though, along with the UK our jokes aren't funny without you cheese and whine sucking cowards who couldn't find a pair to defend themselves on a good day.

Trying to push the limits, TKL?

The U.S. was first with atomic weapons and actually considering it was a race between us and Nazi Germany and Japan and the then USSR (we actually started late in the game on this but made up lost time quickly proving our dedication to Europe and The Pacific Rim to win the war) Thank God we won or we'd either all be speaking Duetsch or all be standing on Communist breadlines waving a voucher for a few slices of the one loaf on the shelf (if our relatives hadn't been incinerated by the atomic blast or died from radiation exposure)

Yes we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki but the incident broke the will of a hostile Japanese Empire bent on both domination and occupation (note the difference of those two words from the words liberation and democratization) of Asia and the Pacific and eventually the Continental U.S.. After the number of U.S. soldiers and Indigenious freedom fighters lost liberating the Pacific Rim Islands and China from brutal Japanese occupation that hosted a great number of attrocities against civilians (Something I need to point out here, when Japan attacked the Philipines we were in the midst of a 25 year plan to return the Islands to self rule after we took the former Spanish COLONY from Spain in the Spanish American War, Your country was still engaged in colonial occupations) Since the war had degraded to some of the most brutal fighting, Island to Island, and casualties for Americans had been enormous, I believe the President made the best decision possible to bring the war to a quick and decisive end. Read "Prisoners of the Japanese" if you want to get the tone of the kind of barbarism was taking place in the Pacific theatre during WWII.

True Irish Immigrants and Irish Americans did secretly and not so secretly donate lots of money to the IRA because they had families in Northern Ireland and were misled by the group believing they were assisting in fighting a revolution for poor, oppressed Irish Catholics, and Your Govt knew who the chief fundraisers were and all the political players and didn't stop it and I think you need to take that up with them.

Seems that we are signatories and have ratified our signing of the CWC. Something of which Syria has done neither and Egypt has signed but not yet ratified.

Yes we did fund Saddam as an enemy of Iran (Remember Khomeni and the hostages and such), many other countries contributed largely to that war as well. The Russians, French and Germany among them and I think it was figured out that Germany put in at least as much if not more than we did.

Nicaragua, what can I say, Americans do not like Communists in our backyard, do you? Love all the great little Communist regiemes starving their people, thriving criminal undergrounds more brutal than any American Mobsters. Leaders living in the lap of luxury while their opposition is crushed by secret police and "re-education camps" I have a friend who is a recent (1 1/2 years ago) immigrant from Cuba, you want to talk about oppressed, he had to break several laws just to have a recreational pastime (bronze sculpture) and the poverty just awful. Despite living within Broadcasting distance from the US they were expressly forbidden (we are talking treasonous behavior) from listening to US stations or others for that matter on the radio at work only Cuban State Radio. You really have to fear the power of other political systems to ban their music and news broadcasts (of course at home everyone listened to American Radio.

Yes we funded the Mujahideen freedom fighters against the USSR in the '80's of which Osama Bin Laden was a foriegn national unit commander. Again fighting the spread of communism.

Since the UN took 12 years to even start to see any progress in Iraqi disarmament and then only under threat of War. I would say that Saddam had plenty of time to find good hiding places for BC weapons, as I mentioned before some are also probably in Syria (you know how convicts pass weapons to their friends to keep from getting caught with them) And we are pretty sure there are some in the Sudan as we know he asked for permission to store them there in 1991 to avoid detection by UNSCOM inspectors. It may now take 12 more years (this isn't the internet so finding things that could be hidden underground in an entire country may take a little time ) to locate them but I am confident they will be found. Though I do feel most politicians are not really all that bright, I don't think they'd be so stupid as to pull something this obvious as a conspiracy, it would not be in their best interests as a brilliant career move.

Sure we have a large stockpile of Nuclear weapons as last resort weapons of defense and we have chemical and biological samples for study that are not weaponized, your UK does too. But nukes also keep us a free country through the "mutual assured destruction" theory of nuclear proliferation.


Who's next? The most likely consider supplying NBC (I hate the WMD reference) agents to morally bancrupt terrorist organizations (who utilize misguided individuals) seeking to attack our civilian populous most likely.

Later,
TSG