Do lumens really mean anything?

I've lately been drooling over some high lumen numbers I've read about here and have been considering "moving up" and paying the higher cost of something brighter than my current lineup. But I was at a Shopko store yesterday and in their flashlight section, they had a couple Coast LED lights that allowed customers to try them out in the package. One used 1AA battery and the package advertised 17 lumens. It seemed really bright! Then there was another one that I believe used 3AAA batteries and advertised something like 69 lumens. I thought to myself, "Prepare to be blown away!" I tried it, and it seemed to be only about half as bright! I figured maybe the batteries were low, so I tried the next one on the peg. Same exact brightness!

Now I'm having second thoughts about getting something like the Coleman 2AA or similar because it puts out "115 lumens". Lumens don't seem to mean much as far as brightness, at least from my experience.

LEDrock said:

I've lately been drooling over some high lumen numbers I've read about here and have been considering "moving up" and paying the higher cost of something brighter than my current lineup. But I was at a Shopko store yesterday and in their flashlight section, they had a couple Coast LED lights that allowed customers to try them out in the package. One used 1AA battery and the package advertised 17 lumens. It seemed really bright! Then there was another one that I believe used 3AAA batteries and advertised something like 69 lumens. I thought to myself, "Prepare to be blown away!" I tried it, and it seemed to be only about half as bright! I figured maybe the batteries were low, so I tried the next one on the peg. Same exact brightness!

Now I'm having second thoughts about getting something like the Coleman 2AA or similar because it puts out "115 lumens". Lumens don't seem to mean much as far as brightness, at least from my experience.

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Yeah, the sad truth is that many manufacturers just flat out lie about specs. Others may use the specs of the emitter itself but that doesn't take into account losses from the electronics, reflector and lens once installed in a torch. It's best to try out a new light or at least read a review from a user of the light to get an idea of just what you can expect from a new torch. FWIW, I've found Surefire to be one of the few torch makers who are actually CONSERVATIVE with their lumen ratings.

LEDrock said:

Lumens don't seem to mean much as far as brightness, at least from my experience.

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Lumens does not measure brightness, but total light output, a focused light can have a very high brightness but a low lumen value.
Brightness is measured in lux.

The other problem is that the specified lumen values can be any of:

1. The "out the front" lumens
2. The rated emitter lumens, this value comes from the datasheet, not from actual measurements.
3. A "made up" value from the manufacture, probably based on an optimistic interpretation of 2.

Lumens is an important number about flashlights in their total light output and brightness is a subset of that, but if misunderstood or if the vendor's post false numbers than it doesn't help. You picked one of the worst companies to read lumens ratings on as they are over inflated.

Having all of the output focused into a small spot may make it appear brighter in that tiny area this is true, but a light with truly higher total lumens will have more total light. It may be that it spreads that light around over a much larger area (bigger circle) but it all adds up. Its hard to get a good feel for the light inside a package inside a store with the lights on. If you compared the 2 in total darkness and saw the spread of light differences you might understand better.

But that still doesn't change the fact that some vendors don't tell the absolute truth about the real lumens out the front of the final packaged light as opposed to what the LED is "capable" of in a lab with a power supply and no reflector or optics in the way to reduce the output.

There are a few of us here that have the capability of measuring actual lumens output of various lights. We know what the differences are. Some companies are very conservative with their numbers and if they say they put out 65 lumens its probably 70. Others say 300 lumens when its 180 out the front of a flashlight.

Fenix has been very honest and representative of their light output in a good manner. So is Surefire. There are a few others. But again the beam pattern does matter in how you see it especially if you are not in an otherwise total dark area looking at the entire pattern.

Also lights that run on 1AAA or 3AAA batteries won't put out high lumens for very long. But they can be made to work. I had a Dorcy that boasted 120 lumens on 3AAA batteries. Its out the front value was around 100 with 3 good NiMH rechargeables and around 85 with 3AAA alkalines if I remember correctly.

So its not that the Lumens rating doesn't mean anything, its just getting all these companies to use the same standard of out the front of their actual flashlights with the batteries they told you to use true "Output" lumens and not some number of the ideal LED by itself in a lab on an regulated DC powersupply, which is not how we ever get to use them.

Lumens mean something but more important in many cases are the shape of the beam (smaller hotspot will make a light seem more or less bright depending in circumstances), the color of the beam (warmer tint will make a light seem less or more bright depending on situation), the batteries used (more lumens from a lithium than alkaline AA battery, for example) and the manufacturer's lies :naughty:

Yes, plus 2 for putting the link in on the previous post.

It's meaningless until manufacturers implement and use a standardized measurement methodology.

-dan

Lumens, a measurement of the total light output from, in our case, a flashlight, is not as important as one would think. Sometimes lux is more important, particularly if you want your light to reach way out there. Lux combined with lumens is probably more significant, at least to me. You can have a nice high lux 3 cell Maglight that reaches out there, but you will illuminate a very, very, small area because there is not a lot of light reaching the target. Now take a light with the same lux as the Mag and add about 100 lumens, and you will be seeing more light out there covering a larger area, same lux, more to see.

Sometimes you want a wide beam, like a flood beam, this is where lumens really means something. More lumens, more to see in that wide field of light, and you can see further, so actually you have more lux on the target, but a more even field of lux, not a hotspot of high lux.

Sometime I forget this lux/lumens relationship and I opt for a high lumen high lux light. Seems to work outside, mostly, but bring that same light into the house where 20 feet is often the max distance and ugh, too much lux/lumens, and I find myself reaching for some diffusion material, or reaching for one of my multiple output lights so I can dial in the right amount of light for the task.

Bill

Your eyes perceive increases in brightness on a log scale, not linearly.

Twice as many lumens is not twice as bright, or rather, does not appear twice as bright to your eyes.

slvoid said:

Your eyes perceive increases in brightness on a log scale, not linearly.

Twice as many lumens is not twice as bright, or rather, does not appear twice as bright to your eyes.

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Bill

Bullzeyebill said:

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Bill

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This should help..
http://ralights.com/index.php?id=LightFaq#Lumens

Info generally pertains to all torches, specifically pertains to Ra/HDS torches.

Thanks for link. I completely understand that. I did not know what your context was when you initially posted. I re-read thread and see that I missed some posts, and in fact I would not have made my initial post had I read them.

Bill

Lumens is a perfectly good number if you have a way to use it and reference to other flashlights or lightsources. It is the scientifically derived term and number for the total light output of a light source. Its not easy to come by, the equipment is expensive.

The problem is most companies don't have an integration sphere and meter to do this. They rely on the numbers that the LED makers say the chip will do. Some know that its not the true number for out the front light of their final product flashlight and don't care. Some do and try to get you realistic numbers.

I don't care about what most vendor's say their lights are. I measure the light myself. I look at the vendor's name, reputation, price of the light, see if I want that style (form/factor) light and what kind of brightness range its in for the $$$. I am willing to spend the money on the Fenix brand lights as one example. I know what I am getting and I know what the light output range they are going to be in. I have

I have a Fenix T1, The vendor states it put out 225 lumens. I measured it in a real integration sphere at work, calibrated once a year, known to be correct. It measured 225 lumens. Turns on at 230 lumens. I have numerous other flashlights, I have measured them from 50 lumens to 220 lumen range. I have compared them at the dead of night to each other. I have photographed some of them in a shooting range lighting up a bunch of targets. I can see and appreciate the difference from my 95 Lumen output Inova T5 (07 model) to my Malkoff M60 pumping out 220 lumens.

I have a couple different units with multiple output modes. I gave one away to precisionworks to help calibrate his integration sphere. It varied from 37, 87, 160 lumens. My Fenix L2D has 4 output modes from around 9 lumens up to 145 real output. Once you have some real numbers, and you deal with companies that tell the truth (within a reasonable percentage) its easier to know what you are getting.

For instance I know that the Pelicon 7060 model that they designed for the police is rated at 130 lumens. I know what that range is and what it falls into with the lights I already have and know that I don't need it. (Its a good light, but since I know I have that range covered, just can't use another one).

you can do a search of precisionworks or MrGman posts and find them. I don't have the time to post the links right now.

search of precisionworks or MrGman posts

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Hmmm, I think that's around here somewhere ... here it is

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=203822

As other members already stated, neither Lux nor Lumens tells a user everything that is needed to make a purchase decision. Beam quality is so subjective, the one I love may be the same one you hate.

To me, the nicest beams are from the Muyshondt Aeon/Ion/Nautilus, NovaTac 120P, McGizmo LS20, Surefire U2, Malkoff M60 & M60LL, etc. You need to try out a number of different lights to see what you like. As MrGman said, the best companies are generally the most accurate with lumen ratings. Some other companies pluck a big number out of thin air & hope the buyer cannot tell that they're flat out lying

Thank you for all the replies! Those links sure are useful too. Lots of info!

My current brightest light is a River Rock 2AA, which is similar to the Nuwai 2AA Aurora. I'm thinking of getting a Coleman 2AA Cree with its advertised 115 lumen output. The RR is supposedly only about 40, but it sure seems bright to me. Is the Coleman a big step forward?

No it won't be a big step up, it won't be 115 lumens.
If you are into 2AA type lights get a Fenix L2? Something. They are actually having a big sale now online. If you want to really step up get the Fenix T1 that is on sale, I think I have seen them going for $47.00, that is a bonafide real 225 lumens output, and has a low mode that is an honest 55 lumens out. Then you will know the beginnning of brightness.