Where is a product made?....does it make a difference anymore?

Well, the reason I ask is because I have been observing the quality shift in the things that I buy to do with my hobby/interests. I collect flashlights and cutlery (fixed and folding knives) and these items come from all over the place, well mainly Asia and the US. I always try and buy local to support my own areas, but there aren't too many commercial manufacturers of either, flashlights or cutlery in Australia, so all I have is from outside. Just inspected the latest purchases of folding knives over the last twelve month and found that it is a combination of; made in US, China and Taiwan. I only purchase well known brands and most of these have US or German origins but have some models that are outsourced to Asian factories. I have more than one of some of these models. On close inspection, the fit and finish, the locking system, the blade shape consistency etc. is better on the Chinese and Taiwanese made models than on the US made products. I honestly think that the models made in Asia for the well known brands are actually better than the US made ones. Btw, I keep away from no name/cheap products.

I would not be surprised to find that eventually when people say made in China or Taiwan, they will mean "this is an excellent product".

Improvements in manufacturing have made great leaps and bounds worldwide and in some cases, the question of where something is made is becoming irrelevant.

What is your experience?

I never paid much attention to it, it's mostly hype anyway. For example kershaw knives tout "MADE IN USA" probably the loudest, except the whole thing is owned by the japanese, just watch the video on kershaw's website where the executives talk about the company. On the other hand, companies like spyderco and sog are based in u.s. while most of their product are made in japan. But they are all quality product, so I don't really care where it's made or who owns them.

I care more about customer service, and the reputation of the company than where it is made.

I think this question is more of a political nature than it is concerning the actual flashlight.

Like my fellow light lovers said ... I care about the light and the company and the customer service.

The political side of the question however might very well bring this thread into heavy weather, so please be careful guys!

bernie

cernobila said:

What is your experience?

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There is definitely a progress, both in number of products manufactured in Asia, as well as in their quality. In the past there were fewer imported products available, and they were of the lowest quality (but price often decided). Currently there is more and more of products with higher quality, especially for companies who have worked longer in a certain field and gained experience.

There is an interesting book (see below) that describes how Chinese companies were founded, and several examples how they managed to take over manufacturing for European/US companies. In the beginning quality was lower, but continuous improvement programs (with workers punished financially for bad quality - would you imagine that in US?) increase quality.
At the same time western companies forced to compete on price had to cut corners, and "western" quality has fallen down. This is capitalism at work...

To be honest, "chinese quality" was a pejorative for me (based on experience, not prejudice) for a long time. Good example of changing that mindset is that initially I haven't even looked at Fenix lights. However once I decided to get one, I do appreciate it's quality level.

On the other hand I do prefer to buy locally manufactured products (food, daily use items) whenever possible (local patriotism). Unfortunately many (and most of the bigger ones) local companies are now part of global corporations, so it is harder and harder.

In today's price driven societies I think we will see more products made in "cheap" places, with lower overall quality. Perhaps until we come back to good old times when you bought one watch/torch/shoes to last a lifetime

Book:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591397154/?tag=cpf0b6-20

Cernobila, very interesting topic. I remember 30 years ago selling mountaineering gear and the very best sleeping bags were US made, and about $500 - $1,000 in Aus, big money then. We imported some Chinese bags, which were the top of their range but mid range here, worth about $150 and was blown away with the quality. The stitching was far, far superior to the $1,000 bags. The down was not as good quality and the nylon was a heavier weight (a negative in a lightweight bag). The stitching was totally accurate, by comparison the $1k items looked like they were sewn by my grandmother without her reading glasses. Up until that point my experience of Chinese goods was trinkets or chopsticks, so this was a real eye opener. At that point I realised the country could make any quality you like, as long as you specified it and paid for it. You cant expect Mercedes S class quality for the price of a second hand Geo, but if you pay well specced Pontiac money you may get it.

We have seen this happen with Japan, that once stood for low quality, now which would most people buy, a Japanese camera or US/Aus one?

By contrast many western companies are trying to leave perceived quality in whilst removing real quality. Take Mercedes and Porsche, from a country associated with the highest quality, Germany. Porsche has had many quality problems with their motors since the water cooled 6 (right after they got Toyota in for advice!). An old 944 Turbo has a forged clutch lever, a Boxster has a pressed galvanised steel item which rusts. It is the same with Mercedes, many say the W124 E series was the best E ever, most mechanics would prefer that than a new E series. The other side is I laughed this morning when I saw a Mitsubishi ad for their Lancer proclaiming automatic headlights, my 1975 Cadillac Eldorado has that!

I think the summary is it is time for old ideas and prejudices to die and for consumers to choose the appropriate quality for their requirements. A homeowner may be perfectly happy with a $5 2D Eveready to find their fusebox, whilst many here may prefer a M6 or Rattlesnake. I think as a general rule people should support their home team, though not for quality reasons (as they don't apply as stated above) but because we are living in troubled times. Most economies are approaching recession, the US now owes more money than they or anyone in history, even the Chinese companies are worried about slowing demand. If you have a chance to help keep your neighbour in a job, you should consider it, though not by buying something which doesn't suit your needs or has substantially inferior quality (ps almost all my time in the Himalayas was spent in an Aussie sleeping bag)

Whenever possible, I like to buy US and Japan-made items. I have no qualms with buying items made in other regions, particularly China/Taiwan but generally speaking (a very, very broad generalization) I feel that American and Japanese made and designed items are usually made with better attention to detail. Many things designed in America with production farmed out to China are very, very good and well-made, however.

carrot said:

Whenever possible, I like to buy US and Japan-made items. I have no qualms with buying items made in other regions, particularly China/Taiwan but generally speaking (a very, very broad generalization) I feel that American and Japanese made and designed items are usually made with better attention to detail. Many things designed in America with production farmed out to China are very, very good and well-made, however.

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+1 Well said carrot!

The idea that any product is "made" somewhere or that a company belongs to a particular country is becoming obsolete anyway. Raw materials and partially assembled pieces come in from around the world and are assembled someplace else. The company's customer service, advertising, and back office functions could happen in any number of countries like India.

In the end, the country that a product is associated with (Jaguar=Britain, Mercedes=Germany) will no longer matter. Only the product and service itself. The CEO who sources the best ideas, raw materials, assembly, advertising/branding, customer service and back office functions will have the happiest customers and most successful company.

Lightraven, very accurate post and it has already happened to the examples in your post. Jaguar = India now, since they have been bought by Tata and all major decisions are made there with product development in the UK

Lightraven said:

The idea that any product is "made" somewhere or that a company belongs to a particular country is becoming obsolete anyway. Raw materials and partially assembled pieces come in from around the world and are assembled someplace else. The company's customer service, advertising, and back office functions could happen in any number of countries like India.

In the end, the country that a product is associated with (Jaguar=Britain, Mercedes=Germany) will no longer matter. Only the product and service itself. The CEO who sources the best ideas, raw materials, assembly, advertising/branding, customer service and back office functions will have the happiest customers and most successful company.

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....And most importantly, what drives this whole situation mentioned above is "price" to the customer......Even Leica cameras are no longer made in Germany but in three different places all outside of its home country.....in order to keep the price down.....the way of the world.

cernobila said:

Btw, I keep away from no name/cheap products.

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I'm your polar opposite. While I understand why many people prefer brands, I - as a tinkerer - prefer to buy supercheap no-brand yum-cha stuff, and fix or improve it myself if it doesn't meet my expectations. This technique hasn't disappointed me so far, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who didn't know one side of a soldering iron from the other.

I would not be surprised to find that eventually when people say made in China or Taiwan, they will mean "this is an excellent product".

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Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturers know very well how to make great products. They generally don't because it's not what the world asks of them, but given time, government shifts and the uprising of workers who'll demand just compensation and fair treatment, things will probably change. Where will we buy our $10 mp3 players when that happens is anybody's guess...

Just about 30 years ago, The North Face was importing "almost" finished premium down sleeping bags. They would have their American (hispanic and asian) seamstresses sew the North Face label into the one small section of unfinished seam, and they were allowed to call it "Made in America". This was when North Face was considered one of the best bags in the world. I still have two all-American made North Face down bags that I use and that perform flawlessly.

Today, almost all clothing, even couture designs, are being produced in places like China. Many european clothing designers had already outsourced production to eastern europe but most of that has now gone to china and the quality has dropped a notch. Only the Italian's have tried to hold onto their clothing production, and the quality is unbelievably superior. I recently invested several thousand dollars, at euro prices, for a French clothing line that represented itself as "made in europe". When the shipments arrived they were all labeled "made in china" and the quality of fabrics and construction was inferior to the prior season's "made in Romania" goods.

With chinese production, the quality varies from poor to very good, if not yet great. Oddly, I just read that for domestic consumption, China is outsourcing significant production of goods to Africa, where they are investing heavily and buying up as much as they can. I thought Chinese prison labor was the least expensive but apparently they've found even cheaper labor.

Designers of goods can attempt to dictate standards and control quality, however as the recent waves of toxic toys and medicines has shown, where a product is made DOES make a difference.

shakeylegs said:

I thought Chinese prison labor was the least expensive but apparently they've found even cheaper labor.

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Arg... I'm so tired of these tabloid international analysts I don't even want to point out how retard that is.

Kiessling said:

I think this question is more of a political nature than it is concerning the actual flashlight.


The political side of the question however might very well bring this thread into heavy weather, so please be careful guys!

bernie

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Yes, I agree...
I would like to see this thread "underground".....


I don`t feel comfy expressing myself "up here" about Q`s like this...:huh:

lumafist said:

Yes, I agree...
I would like to see this thread "underground".....


I don`t feel comfy expressing myself "up here" about Q`s like this...:huh:

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The Underground is the place for it. It's closed here.