Different spin on things

Over the last few years, I have watched many new light companies mostly asian (nothing against) enter the market with the latest and greatest leds and complex interfaces; some seem to inch their way up (in price) toward what SEEMS as Surefire or more elite status.

As we all have witnessed, this explosion has helped escalate Led technology in flashlights and gives all of us more inexpensive ways to acquire these industrial gains. I have no problem whatsoever with this part of the advancement.

I guess my point is, that with the common knowledge that some of these aforementioned companies like to emulate popular and successful products, Why don't they put more emphasis on quality, repeatability and more eye-pleasing products. This would create longer lasting and sustainable entities.

Ya know, take this "more is better" approach and channel it into products that will last beyond the flavor of the day. I would think this directive would be as profitable as what is going on now but could create more longevity and name brand recognition.

I see a lot of thick black coated cheaply anodized, wayward threaded, loosely contacted lights with the latest emitters and over-complex UI'S. Why not set your company up to compete with the best, have equal quality and performance but with way cheaper labor?:shrug:

What's is everyone's take on this?

maybe these newer start-ups do not have the best team of designers, engineers. it would be easier to 'copy' those considered top of their game. although a light is not just about output but most average consumers (in asia i suppose) may think differently (speaking from experience).

here (in Sg) its lumens, lumens and more lumens, if a light has got less lumens its gotta cost less. :shakehead

well, i am asian & i am the only flashaholic in the crowd of the unenlightened. :mecry:

"Why not set your company up to compete with the best, have equal quality and performance but with way cheaper labor?"
So your solution is to provide the same product for less through the miracle of the sweatshop.
Wow, you are a terrible person.
Maybe some of these cheaper companies arent trully innovative, but I think they are still satisfying the market. Some ppl actually arent as concerned with perfect build and look and are willing to sacrifice these things for performance, surefires are great, but they don't cover every base.Sometimes, we want to pay less and receive less, because hey, we want to pay less. I could even understand your point if your conclusion wasn't as ridiculous as to promote paying workers less. Unfortunately I am sure many of the lights we purchase are assembled by underpaid workers, but I hardly think we should applaud this trend, ideally I think most decent people would like to see more reasonable pricing without throwing workers under the bus. Also, workers who get paid nothing obviously often don't have the same skills as those who are higher paid. You probably have a job, how would you feel getting paid less for the job you do?
Man, I don't want to flame or troll or anything, but this comment really ticked me off.

This is a tuff one to size up and respond to, as one might guess. It's getting harder to distinguish old/new, onshore/offshore than it ever has been. For instance, I believe LED Lenser is a Dutch company using Hong Kong manufacturing. How much design and engineering is done in one place or the other? And how many brands and models are produced by the company that makes Fenix lights? I couldn't answer. And how many led die used in flashlights are actually made in Asia? How many are packaged and shipped from there? I learned some months ago that most of the Camrys sold in Japan are made here in the USA, but how many countries are producing the parts? It probably changes by the day. The global village has some long and winding streets. As an industry the led flashlight business is where the auto industry was before WW1. All over the map, and innovation is rampant. I have an Ultrafire 501B & a 502B, the difference is major to me, and that's from a single producer within 8-9 months. And Surefire gets dinged regularly for being behind the innovation curve, yet their response to multi-mode led competitors (E1B and E1/2L) are among the best and most sought after lights available, with 2 rounds of upgrades in replacement heads. It seems to me that improvements are happening across markets and manufacturers. But, as flashaholics, one is too many, 100 are not enough. And to many, cost is no object.

Good topic BTW. The integrated circuits business has seen the same thing 1000 fold.

JoeDizzy said:

...Why don't they put more emphasis on quality, repeatability and more eye-pleasing products. This would create longer lasting and sustainable entities.
...

Click to expand...

I'm curious, how are "they" not doing this?

Fenix, NiteCore, JetBeam, LiteFlux, and a few more companies are providing quality lights that are innovative, affordable, and reliable to the market.

I don't want this to turn into another "them" vs "SureFire" again so let's leave SureFire out of this. Not everyone can afford or need SureFire quality / prices of lights.

These other companies are providing products for people that want them. It's a shame not more American companies provide products that fill this space, so we have only these companies to look to for innovative products.

I see a lot of thick black coated cheaply anodized, wayward threaded, loosely contacted lights with the latest emitters and over-complex UI'S....

Click to expand...

some people buy from cheap sources like DX/KD, but not everyone. I don't think this applies to the top / successful companies I mentioned above, so not sure where your angst comes from. And if you don't like these products, you can always buy the SureFires. No one's forcing you to buy these products. I'm not buying the cheap low quality products. :shrug:

portezbie said:

So your solution is to provide the same product for less through the miracle of the sweatshop.
Wow, you are a terrible person.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about? He said nothing about "sweatshops".
Do YOU buy any products made with "way cheaper labor", which the OP referenced? What a hypocrite you are sir.

I have bought many Dorcys in my lifetime, many in the $5 to $10 range and every one worked out of the package. Most of them area also made in the far east but with Dorcy approved QC.
I buy a bunch of lights from DX and similar for double the price and have problems with 1/2 of them. Bad QC on the design and bad QA in production.

I once bought a 5 LED torch from Sears and was surprised the button was in the 2nd operating position. Then I realized someone at the factory had put batteries in & click - center LED works, and click - outside LEDs works, take batteries out and package.
Fenix tried to be the cream of the crop from China and have taken steps since day 1 to be considered a quality product and few of their lights have arrived DOA.
Jetbeam went with features with their CLE (multimode, 2X brighter LED than the Civictor) but suffered a 40% failure rate. They have now a new QA system and outside quality checks, in effect every torch is checked twice. Still many CPF members who were around during the fiasco are reluctant to buy a Jetbeam.
Sometimes we are at fault. Zebralight made a very good light in the H50. Then they made the mistake of asking CPF members what we want as the UI for the H30. Too many suggestions, too hard to implement >>> disaster time.
I must admit some are trying hard to produce lights that at least do not arrive DOA. All 4 of my MTE 1AA single stage (sku1995) have QC stickers and all 4 worked. Ditto my Ultrafire C3 Q5 5 mode with extension. Ultrafire did mess up by telling DX they were single mode so they are not perfect yet. Of all the SSC-P7 lights sold I only saw 1 post of a faulty one. The UI of the multimodes is a different matter, they still need to work on that.

-----

Outside CPF and similar fora, a flashlight is a $5 thing. So expensive flashlights were/are expected to be sold as gifts.
Fenix sold the L1P for a whole year in gift boxes before they realize most of their North American customers USE the lights. Now they only provide gift boxes for the Xmas specials.
Dereelight is still shipping their torches in gift boxes.

-----

You have to realize many of todays North American torches are designed for special purposes.
Surefire - military & SWAT requirements.
Streamlight, UK - Class 1 Div 2 or Class 1 Div 1 explosion proof.
UK, Tektite - dive rated. (The IPX8 that the Chinese manufacturers are so fond of is not a dive rating. It is a rating for control cabinets - you can hose down the cabinet to clean it as opposed to limited to wiping it down with a damp cloth.)
So many of these lights are not good for innovation as they have to be re-qualified every time a change is made.

portezbie said:

So your solution is to provide the same product for less through the miracle of the sweatshop.

Click to expand...

portezbie said:

Wow, you are a terrible person.
Man, I don't want to flame or troll or anything...

Click to expand...

I see. You say you "don't want to flame or troll or anything", but you nevertheless go right ahead and do it anyway.

The weak supplemental disclaimer is distasteful and unconvincing, and the tone of your post is offensive and inflammatory. You were warned only recently about posting provocative material, but your style is unmodified.

You can therefore take a few days away from here, and I suggest you make some adjustments to your attitude prior to your return.

JoeDizzy said:

...the common knowledge that some of these aforementioned companies like to emulate popular and successful products...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure where this notion is coming from. When I see JetBeam's three-memory position IBS, for example, this isn't a copy of some other "more successful" company's design, it's an innovation that goes a step beyond what those companies are offering. The flashlight industry isn't an endless parade of smaller/newer companies that are copying what an elite few are doing, it's a broad range of offerings from many different sources, all competing to outdo everyone else, sometimes through sheer innovation and engineering and/or sometimes through pure price/performance ratio.

If there were a single flashlight brand that was so clearly above and beyond all other manufacturers, then this forum would be all about obtaining one of these lights and then having successfully completed the flashlight hobby. "I finally got a [brand] light today, I'm glad that whole flashlight thing is taken care of now.." :laughing:

a company's success or failure will depend largely on consumer preferance & their customer base. start-ups being start-ups, i assume sourcing for the latest & the greatest and current LEDs for their production light is more easily done. there's lower investment risk involved? compared to getting a heftier priced industrial machine to produce quality lights.

design issues are harder to nail, something well recieve in certain regions may not be in other region. something that is subjective as design should be left out for debate?

on issue of quality (& price), how good is good enough? to whom? good products come with a price to match, notto mention premium products. how well will producing top-the-of-the-range products go with the majority? are these top-of-the-range products for export exclusively, or will there be enough local consumers who could afford and want them bad enough? [for a record even in affluent Sg, many baulk at spending beyond SG$40 on a light. being almost a lone flashaholic out here, the first impression on my lights were never positive:sick2:.] how many people in asian countries could afford a US$40 light with their low monthly wages:green:? reality is that few could afford premium lights (& their batteries), for those who could afford, even less want to spend good money on them. it'll only be good for a company if the lights sell- locally, regionally, or further. & further? and if that does not work out? goes the start-up...

how does a start-up compete with established companies with a loyal following? by cloning? this may in turn, push for established companies to up their stakes to come out with even better products for the benefit of consumers in the long run.

i am sure the current level of success is prove enough that they are heading in the right direction in terms of quality, price & design on the whole as a package for their products.

there are lights with quality so bad yet people buy them. to these folks, Mag is premium!

JoeDizzy said:

Over the last few years, I have watched many new light companies mostly asian (nothing against) enter the market with the latest and greatest leds and complex interfaces; some seem to inch their way up (in price) toward what SEEMS as Surefire or more elite status.

As we all have witnessed, this explosion has helped escalate Led technology in flashlights and gives all of us more inexpensive ways to acquire these industrial gains. I have no problem whatsoever with this part of the advancement.

I guess my point is, that with the common knowledge that some of these aforementioned companies like to emulate popular and successful products, Why don't they put more emphasis on quality, repeatability and more eye-pleasing products. This would create longer lasting and sustainable entities.

Ya know, take this "more is better" approach and channel it into products that will last beyond the flavor of the day. I would think this directive would be as profitable as what is going on now but could create more longevity and name brand recognition.

I see a lot of thick black coated cheaply anodized, wayward threaded, loosely contacted lights with the latest emitters and over-complex UI'S. Why not set your company up to compete with the best, have equal quality and performance but with way cheaper labor?:shrug:

What's is everyone's take on this?

Click to expand...

Simple answer: sex sells. These very forums have proven to many torch makers that what sells is MORE lumens plain and simple. Look at the "buckle light", 80+ lumens for like 1/2 hour and people lap them up. Why? Because for awhile it was the bestest, brightest thing. That sells in the stores as well. There are many people who just don't care about runtimes or quality, they only want the coolest gadget on the block and if it is brighter, right out of the package, than the light next to it and costs less........................then you've got a sale! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As for long term sales, there will always be a new batch of youngsters who think the same way. THAT is their long term....................

I think it would be hard for a new company to start up and go head on with an old company like surefire which has established its name long ago with their incan and led line. Also the "made in USA" seemed far superior in quality to the "made in china" for flashlights but in recent years i would have to say that companies like Fenix have stepped it up and shown that you can get quality products.

Also the reason(imo) that companies like Fenix have been successful is that they filled in the gap in the market. The gap between cheap/low quality lights and the expensive/high quality lights. They gave us quality at a more affordable price and also producing lights with the latest led technology as their way of competing with other companies.

Wow! I was only offering up ideas to help better product offerings. As far as I know the labor for some overseas lights is cheaper than here in The US. If not true then I am sorry. This is in no way a knock or put down to anyone. My point was why not utilize your advantages and focus more on quality than rushing through manufacturing.

Can I not offer my input on how to help better flashlights?

I said nothing in my post that would warrant such comments. I was only interested in being constructive.

Can I not offer my input on how to help better flashlights?

I said nothing in my post that would warrant such comments. I was only interested in being constructive.[/quote]

Don't Panic! Yes- you may offer your input. Some folks like to put others down in order to build themselves up, or for other reasons that we may not understand.

There have been plenty of interesting, constructive answers to your post. Focus on those, and don't let the negativity get you down. It seems that there was only one individual who chose to answer with insult, and it would be best for this good topic if we spend no more time on his post.

All companies, not just Asian ones, build and market what they think will sell at a profit. If enough consumers will buy poor quality goods, poor quality goods will be offered for sale. For most products, flashlights certainly included, there's a market for both high quality, high cost items and low quality, low cost items. So companies appear which satisfy the demand.

Think of it as an evolutionary process. If there's no market for junk products, companies which offer junk products will go out of business or change their offerings.

I'm not an economist, but it seems that you could consider customer service to be another product that people can decide to pay for or not. The rise of Wal-Mart and its ilk accompanied by the rapid decline of stores with knowledgeable and helpful employees simply shows that a large number of people prefer lower prices to better customer service. I'm not one of them, so I'm very glad to see that there are enough people who do place value on customer service to support the likes of Fenix-Store and other fine retailers, and manufacturers who support their products. But I also have room in my hobby for both low-cost, relatively poor quality lights to play with, and better quality lights for those occasions when reliability is important.

c_c

JoeDizzy said:

Over the last few years, I have watched many new light companies mostly asian (nothing against) enter the market with the latest and greatest leds and complex interfaces; some seem to inch their way up (in price) toward what SEEMS as Surefire or more elite status.

As we all have witnessed, this explosion has helped escalate Led technology in flashlights and gives all of us more inexpensive ways to acquire these industrial gains. I have no problem whatsoever with this part of the advancement.

I guess my point is, that with the common knowledge that some of these aforementioned companies like to emulate popular and successful products, Why don't they put more emphasis on quality, repeatability and more eye-pleasing products. This would create longer lasting and sustainable entities.

Ya know, take this "more is better" approach and channel it into products that will last beyond the flavor of the day. I would think this directive would be as profitable as what is going on now but could create more longevity and name brand recognition.

I see a lot of thick black coated cheaply anodized, wayward threaded, loosely contacted lights with the latest emitters and over-complex UI'S. Why not set your company up to compete with the best, have equal quality and performance but with way cheaper labor?:shrug:

What's is everyone's take on this?

Click to expand...

i am not exactly sure as to which Asian company's have offended you with their poor quality. i have in my collection, lights from Derrylight, microfire and wolf-eyes, if i am not mistaken, and i stand to be corrected if i am, these company's are Asian, and as far as i am concerned, their quality is second to none. I fail to see the reason why one would buy an expensive highly engineered piece of equipment that would last a lifetime that failed to shine as opposed to a less expensive quality light that shone par excellence but only lasted half a lifetime. lost on me. i am not oriental, but i can tell you IMHO they have the equation correct.

while unlikely start-ups can offer a wide range of products that caters to wide spectrum of consumers from the beginning, if they make enough profits they just might. Pelican & Streamlight are just 2 such brands have a wide selection of illumination products.

while a start-up companies light may not come close in (beam) quality, there are other aspects to a product that seems to go down well enough for the majority. robustness of the construction, materials that hold up to some rough treatment, brightness of the light with relative to the price are just as important. other things like marketing of the light (TV advertisement, print ads), decent product design, packaging to draw non-flashaholics for a closer look helps sell a light in subtle ways too. [looks cool, doesn't cost too much. , walks to the cashier. a sale is made.]

a rare but major occassional blackout with timely marketing raises the awareness of their products to ordinary folks. hehee...