Surefire P60L performance, disappointing?

I got a 6PL on the way so I've been looking around for info about it. From what I see the performance is quite disappointing compare with other lights.

I'm not talking about the manufactures that ride the edge of new emitter here, but Inova T1. It use K2 TFFC which supposely is inefficient compared with cree/seoul, but it manage 100 lumens for over 4 hours before dropping out of regulation. P60L with seoul, which has less output, can only do less than 3 hours. Now before you guys are all over how SF under rate their lumens, see here for beamshot comparisons, here for T1 runtime and here for P60L runtime. I'm not liking the looks of this. So did I miss something here, or do P60L just use a crappy bin from seoul?

Now the question, have any of you disassembled the SF P60L and upgraded the emitter? Seems it could be the much needed shot in the arm P60L needs.

All i can say is they're horrible... I haven't tried to upgrade mine yet... I just went out and purchased an M60L for it... Regulated for 4.5hrs @ full output...
I may have to try tweaking the P60L maybe...

I can't say I've tried to upgrade my P60L, but I can tell of my experience with it and my Inova T1 (2008 version).

To my eye, on good batteries, these lights have near identical output (mind you I use my P60L in a G2 host). When shining the lights on my hand or other close objects, I could swear that the T1 is brighter, but for distance, or ceiling bounce tests, I'd almost say the P60L has a very slight edge. I've also done runtime tests on both lights, and they're pretty close to the same: the P60L gives me somewhere between 3.5 and 4 hours of regulated runtime, and the T1 gives me maybe 4 to 4.5 hours. Also, as I recall, the P60L gave me more "usable" post-regulation runtime, by an hour or two. So in terms of output and runtime, I view these lights as virtually identical.

The real-world differences between these two emerge in tint and beam pattern. Neither has a thoroughly pleasing tint - the P60L is too blue/purple for me to rate it that highly, and although the T1 does give a more "realistic" tint, I'd have to call it "sickly yellow". In terms of beam pattern, it depends on what you need. The T1 has a wider hotspot, which makes it perhaps nicer for indoor use, but it's slightly squarish in shape. The P60L is perfectly smooth, and its hotspot throws relatively well, for its size/output/etc.

Now, neither of these is as efficient as, say, a Dereelight or Malkoff drop-in, but they still perform pretty well. Since I have an M60LF, which vastly outperforms both the T1 and the P60L, the M60LF easily sees the most use. But I don't hesitate to use the T1/P60L, and would readily recommend them to others in the market for a good, dependable flashlight.

Mine was pretty blue and not bright.


Compared to ap Fenix T1 High

Speak of the devil, your beamshot of P60L and T1 is what I linked to.

The P60L isn't going to be bright like a TK10 or TK11.

It will, however, have a decently long runtime. I always keep a G2L with a fresh set of CR123s and a spare carrier of 123s for an emergency or when running ambulance. It's not a spotting light, but as an area light and for length of runtime, it works extremely well.

The P60L initially impressed me with its beam characteristics.However, I realized that my initial enthusiasm was skewed by my loyalty to Surefire products and I wasn't being as objective as I could have been. The LED's in my three examples are much bluer than any of the LED lights I've since bought . The runtime in regulation is only approximately 3.5 hours and the heat sinking is (IMO) not as well done as perhaps it could have been.

However, on the plus side the ,as already alluded to, the beam profile (tint apart) is good and certainly leaves little to complain about apart from a limited output. The P60L fits any light which was designed for a P60 lamp and, of course, has the normal and comprehensive Surefire warranty. I don't think it'll be particularly easy to swap out the emitter for something better and even if it is with the poor heat sinking of the P60L will the performance gain justify the effort?

Despite these observations I feel Surefire has succeeded in producing a replacement LED module for the P60 and that the P60L is a good alternative for the incandescent lamp. It will be very interesting to see if Surefire ever bring a P61L to market as if it is based on the same approach as the P60L heat sinking is going to be a major issue. I would suggest that you think of your P60L as a great utilitarian LED replacement for a P60 but nothing to write home about.:shrug:

Hopefully there will be a mkII version, the P60L in its current incarnation is a bit lackluster. It's not "bad" but compared to aftermarket drop-ins for the same price give or take a few bucks it certainly stands out as among the worst for both runtime and brightness. I think surefire was focused a little too much on keeping the dimensions identical to the old P60, a bit more heatsinking, more efficient regulation, and a less aggressive thermal regulator would have done it good.

Yoda4561 said:

I think surefire was focused a little too much on keeping the dimensions identical to the old P60, a bit more heatsinking, more efficient regulation, and a less aggressive thermal regulator would have done it good.

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Given the number and variety of their product the P60L had to be backwards compatible with I suggest that they did have to compromise performance for physical fit.
It also appears that SureFire are anticipating the P60L will be required to perform for considerable periods of time over the course of years in products, many getting very hot as WeaponLights close to heavily used barrels, and have been aggressive in their use of 'throttling back' to prevent overheating because they have long-term performance in mind.

I'm really glad that you think your P60L is = to your Inova T1 zven, but you certainly seem (from what I've read) to be in the minority about that.

I think that SF "bombed" on the P60L from the start, the false/misleading run times, and the output is not what I would expect from SF in a P/G series flashlight. I have changed all of my SF's (P/G series) to Malkoff's, and put the P60L's into "clone" lights for "give aways" to friends, etc..

I think everybody (at least I did) expected the Malkoff's to "out perform" SF (Malkoff "drop-ins" are everything that the SF P60L SHOULD be), but Inova, who would have thought (after the 2007's) that Inova would have come thru with such wonderful lights (again, what SF SHOULD be), beating SF at their own game.

My .02 FWIW YMMV

Mercaptan, may I suggest a Malkoff M60LL for your G2? It will do EVERYTHING your P60L will do, (+) a runtime of approx. 8 hrs. at "full output" vs. about 4 hrs. (at a reduced output level, to 50%; not at "full output" like a Malkoff) of the P60L.

For me, not much of a choice, of course I work straight nights and my lights get a "work out".

My .02 FWIW YMMV

have any of you disassembled the SF P60L and upgraded the emitter?

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In a manner of speaking ... my 6P got a Malkoff M60, and all four G2's got the M60LL. Replacing the pill would, IMO, not be the most effective approach. You can list the P60 LED assembly and sell it for $25 to $30 (Marketplace B/S/T) & then buy the Malkoff for about twenty bucks more.

precisionworks said:

You can list the P60 LED assembly and sell it for $25 to $30 (Marketplace B/S/T) & then buy the Malkoff for about twenty bucks more.

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That's what I did with my G2L. But I went with the M60L rather than the LL.

I think an interesting 'test' of the various alternatives to SureFire's P60L would be to install them in MP5 forend WeaponLights (model 628 for example) used by active shooters and evaluate them every 3 months for output performance.
I wonder whether the good thermal performance of a Malkoff assembly may count against it when the outside of the bezel is baked by the heat of the firearm's barrel?

Comparing a P60L to a T1 is comparing apples to oranges. There is a P61L in the works with a Cree. When that module hits the streets then you can compare it to a T1 or T10.

I wonder whether the good thermal performance of a Malkoff assembly may count against it when the outside of the bezel is baked by the heat of the firearm's barrel?

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That would be an interesting test, especially if conducted in a hot climate like Iraq/Afghanistan. Combine 110F temps, a barrel that's already sunbaked, and a good thermal path ... somethings gonna give. Probably a shift in color temp, shorter life, and reduced output.

I have a Malkoff M30, which is extremely bright, showing almost 3X the output of the P60L, using bounce with lightmeter. However, I do like the beam of my P60L which is a beautiful white. I also like the fact that it has a nice runtime with two 17500's. I guess the other reason I like the P60L is because it is not too bright in close in use.

Bill

Size15's said:

I wonder whether the good thermal performance of a Malkoff assembly may count against it when the outside of the bezel is baked by the heat of the firearm's barrel?

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It won't, the led as a maximum operation temperature of 150 degrees celcius, i.e. as long as the outside is below that temperature, the led is better off with a good connection to the outside.

But it might boil itself, if the outside is very hot, but without the outside connection, it would boil itself sooner.

Al's suggestion is interesting as it appears to infer that Malkoff's (or any other drop-in) might not fare as well in the situation he envisages? In fairness the competition he suggests is pretty extreme. Does Al have any reason to suppose Surefire have conducted those types of test on P60L's with them having survived the ordeal?

Playing devils advocate the Malkoff units are in use with many LEO's already and there is no suggestion that they are not up to long term use on or with firearms?

Size15's said:

I think an interesting 'test' of the various alternatives to SureFire's P60L would be to install them in MP5 forend WeaponLights (model 628 for example) used by active shooters and evaluate them every 3 months for output performance.
I wonder whether the good thermal performance of a Malkoff assembly may count against it when the outside of the bezel is baked by the heat of the firearm's barrel?

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I doubt the heat would be an issue, I'd be more worried about the optics assembly. Though Khatod marks it as "vibration proof" there have been some reports of M60's dropped on a hard surface having the optic come a little loose. I think with the original reflector setup it would be fine in that situation. All of the electronics are potted in solid epoxy too so that should be a + for weaponslight durability.