Please help! I need suggestions on a purchase

I've been looking on this fantastic forum for almost a week now and looked at shed loads of threads etc and with all the lights out there I'm starting to loose it! J. Basically I'm looking for something along the following lines….

a) Preferably Type III black anodized.
b) Preferably the smaller the better but max 12.5/13cm (5 inches) long and max 25mm (1 inch) body diameter, max bezel diameter 1.25 inch (30mm).
c) Momentary on (no reverse clickies but could be persuaded if the light covers everything below) and two levels.
d) bright long throw white LED (or even Xenon bulb but I know they take more power to run hence the preference for LEDs), anything from 1-3 LEDs should suffice from what I've read; low level for close work and to act as a room light when in a tent/chalet/camp/basha (3+ meters throw), high for spotting things clearly 20+ meters away
e) and now the tricky bit: bright red led (any number of LEDs) enough to throw a good amount of light to about 4/5(+) meters on high (enough to light the path/trail/undergrowth a fair way in front of me before I fall off the cliff or bump into a tree and which I know is asking a lot) and also a low for close work (map reading etc). Also a wide beam would be good.
f) and lastly battery times: (C-123's as I believe AA or AAA's are out of the question)
For the high levels; white 2+ hours and red 5+ hours
For the low levels; white around 15+ hours and red 20+.
Obviously the more the better for both levels.
Preferably NO Rechargeables as unfortunately there are no plug points in forests/mountains, but then that would all depend on how long they hold their charge(?).

I'm not too bothered about the type of LEDs used as long as they do the job. However, the beams for all levels should be good clean beams with minimal artifacts.
The closest thing I've seen so far is the Surefire Kroma but the price is a little too steep for me hence the search for an alternative.

I've read that red filters are a waste of battery life as they're still pumping out white light but if it fills the spec above (i.e. 20+ hours on low, which will of course mean the white does the same output J so long as the white high level still lasts 2+ hours), and filters are as good as an led for keeping my night vision then I'm up for it. The Wolf-eyes 6 digital Cree 6AX sniper seems great but I haven't a clue if the 20% level would throw enough red light to that 5+ meter mark I mentioned or would I need to use the high level to achieve this and in so doing ruining my night vision because it's TOO bright. Can any one enlighten me on that? And what is the 2% level like? Also will the white high level throw to 20+ meters.
The other alternative is the Surefire L1 latest gen which looks closer than the wolf-eyes but is the low 10 lumens with a red filter enough to throw a good amount of light as, again, I reckon the high level would be too bright and ruin my NV? (I'm afraid I still don't quite get how much light a lumen is in practical terms especially taking into account the inverse square law when different distances are involved).

Also, I'm not averse to buying two lights, one white and one red and maybe taping them together. I found plenty of lights to fill the white spec but none to fill the red (maybe I haven't looked hard enough).
To finish; so far it's a toss up between the Surefire L1 or the Wolf-eyes but I thought I'd ask you pro's out there for your thoughts before making a firm decision.
Thanking you very much in advance and sorry for the long post.
Pete

E would probably be the hardest.

The RA Twistie might work but it is a twistie instead of a clickie.

IIRC no matter how bright the red is, it still shouldn't blow out your night vision because red doesn't affect what you eyes need for good night vision(, forgot if they were rods or cones) Your pupils will shrink but your night vision will still be there. LED don't produce much red as you know so you will loose a lot of output.

What price are you looking at. Have you seen the Proton Pro? There are Lithium AAs and rechargeables(they are much better then alkalines). Low Self Discharge NiMh batteries retain a good amount of life(80%?) after a year of no use. Unprotected Li-ions have around 95% capacity after a year, probably 85% for protected ones.

:welcome:

The Proton Pro is very close to what you want. Remember that most high power lights (and other electronics) work best on rechargable cells. You say you can't plug in outdoors to recharged them, but why would you need to? They last longer than alkaline, they are brighter, and you can't plug in to recharge a disposable alkaline in the woods either

A modern NiMH like Eneloop has low self discharge, meaning it will hold it's charge for a long time (85% after an entire year)

The Proton Pro is likely the closest you'll find to what you need. The Ra Twisty w/ red is pretty nice from what I hear but doesn't have output adjustment for the red. Coleman made the Exponent 1 CR123 and 2 CR123 flashlights which also have a red and a decent user interface, though I don't remember if they have a forward or reverse clickie. As for rechargeable I'll echo what has already been said... Low Self Discharge NiMh have been around for well over a year now in the mainstream. Rechargeable Lithium Ion cells never had significant self discharge to begin with. And I'll add that unless I'm doing something like climbing a 12,000'+ peak I can recharge all my cells via solar most of the time. There's even enough sun and light for that up here in Washington during the warmer half of the year.

Hi all
Thanks very much for taking the trouble to read and then offer your suggestions.
I had a look around the forum for a review of the Proton Pro (I did actually read the review of the original proton on www.flashlightreviews.com which is also a really great site but wasn't impressed at all really hence why I didn't mention it) and my word, there's hardly a bad word to say about this little unit. I am very impressed indeed with all the comments/pictures on the following threads/links….

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/182920&page=1

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2263887&postcount=1

http://fred-flashlights.tacomall.com.tw/5mshot.htm

http://fred-flashlights.tacomall.com.tw/10mshot.htm

http://fred-flashlights.tacomall.com.tw/throw.htm

All were extremely useful especially the 5 & 10 beam shots as it gave me exactly what I need to know (well, at least for the white LED anyway). It's great to be able to see the actual performance of a light in pictures as opposed to words. Compared to the wolf-eyes and SF L1, the proton does a fantastic job. The brightness, spill and quality of light is somewhat less than the W-E but compared to the SF L1 it's certainly gives it a run for it's money, even though it does lose out (but only Just) and considering how much I'll be spending and the size of the damn thing, well what can I say. Brilliant! (no pun intended) .

My only concerns are that I doubt very much if the P.Pro will light objects 20+ meters away on white high going by the 10 meter beam shots. I mean, I'm sure it will throw light at that distance but whether it's useful light (i.e. being able to see a big enough area say 2 or 3m diameter clearly) I'm not sure, but hey, you can't always have it your way, and considering the other benefits, and the more important ones like lighting up a path about 5 meters in front of you, I can live with 10 or 15 meters.

The other concern is the red high as I couldn't finds any posts about this. I have a maglite solitaire where I made my own red lens from a crappy red plastic housing unit for a pen on a string that retracts into this housing (I don't even think it's true red) and swapped it for the clear lens. It's rubbish with artifacts everywhere (what do you expect!) but it does still throw light for a good few meters, but that's in a pitch black room, so going by that alone I reckon the red LED on high will absolutely fit my purposes (I'm pretty confident it will. It's just nice for it to be confirmed by users).

The point made by Marduke about rechargeables being just as usefull as lithium is well taken and heeded. A power source is a power source, how it gets it's charge is not the point really. it's about having enough batteries on you to last the time you want them too. And the Phantpmphoton's idea about using solar power is inspired. It never occurred to me! And thanks to Gunner12 for your mention of the different battery types it takes (PS. i wasn't looking to spend more that say £100 ($150))

The last concern is the dark ring i've been reading about but it seems someone has found a temporary, but very good solution, by using hairspray!! but i suspect this will reduce the throw.

The coleman exponent 2 looks even better on paper. this is from this website http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___92351?CS_003=2450921&CS_010=92351 but i get the feeling that coleman seem to be a cheap and chearful product.....

Cree® XLamp® XR-E LED - 165 lumens on high.

• Selector dial changes light colors and electronic lock-out.
• Five 3MM red LEDs for enhanced night vision.
• White LED run time up to 1.5 hours on high and 6 hours on low; Red LEDs run time up to 15 hours on high and 50 hours on low.
• Five-position switch Off/Momentary On/Low/High/Emergency Strobe.
• Tail cap smart switch technology - push button to cycle through settings but if left on any setting for a few seconds, the next activation turns the flashlight off.
• Durable, weather-resistant milled aluminum body for rugged use.
• Convenient tail cap easily attaches lanyard for key ring.
• Weighs 5.3 ounces (150 grams) with battery.
• Made in China.

....and which seems too good to be true. Does anyone have any facts and figures on this or point me to a review or thread (i did do a CPF and google search but most, if not all, are about their lanterns)?. Is it constructed from Type III anodized? Also, it's not included in the beam shot links above. I'm very, VERY impressed but i don't know who coleman are or what sort of a reputation they have. Can anyone enlighten me to how this unit performs and about colemans reputation?

Before I go to look at some websites to buy the Proton Pro, i'll wait a few days to see if any other option become apparant, as, so far, this is my first choice and now the standard/control for what i'm looking for. I'll wait and see it the coleman fits the bill.

Again, many, many thanks to everyone for your suggestion(s). You really do know your stuff as I think that would have taken me ages to find. I did a search quoting "RED LED" but I didn't come across the 1st two threads mentioned above. I reckon they were there but I just never got to them because of the ones before it or getting sidetracked ala the wolf-eyes and surefire. I'll let you know my thoughts once I receive it but I suppose I should post that on the first thread above. Look out for it if you're interested.

For a 1xAA light, the Proton Pro really does throw quite well. CFR lights has it for probably be best price, <$50. If you don't like it, you can sell it back here on CPF for your money, especially to someone in Europe trying to avoid any shipping costs.

there are a couple ways to make it floodier. Hairspray on the reflector works. You can put a water bottle cap over the front, and that works very well. If you put the satin (not clear or matte) finish cellophane tape over the lens, that's a semi-permanent but easily removable diffuser also.

Just get a SureFire A2 Aviator.

I've just, today, received a Photon Freedom Micro Covert red light and it's a lovely little light, I have the white as well which I bought about 6 or so months ago.

I bought only really to have a red light as a reference point. I have added a few beam shots of the white and red Covert FYI. The battery on the white is the one it came with when I bought it and have used it for about maybe 2/3 hours intermittently for the 6+ months I've had it, (10 mins here, 5 mins there.).

Here are some beam shots. (really sorry about the quality but I had to use my webcam. However, they do show a relatively OK representation of how I saw them with the naked eye). (all pics are 1024x768. The markers on the floor are candles :shakehead and mark each meter)

1) White high 8m from back of bike wheel.
(Linked)


2) Red high (you can JUST about see the back wheel if you look Really Hard).
(Linked)

3) What I'd like my Red light to be. (It's basically the red shot above but obviously tweaked with a picture editor. It's just to give you an idea as opposed to saying some like "twice the brightness").
(Linked)


So, here is probably a better picture, literally, of what I am looking for (for reference please see this link of beam shots:

http://fred-flashlights.tacomall.com.tw/10mshot.htm

A white light similar to the wolf-eyes Q5 picture or the Fenix P3D Q5 (Turbo), and a red light similar to my "ideal" picture above.

Run time for white: high 1.5+ hours.
Run time for red: high 8+ hours .

I'd also like a mid and low level for both white and red but I know now that I am possible asking for TOO much from one light, so I think I may HAVE to buy two lights, one for each color. The white shouldn't be a problem finding but can anyone help with my ideal red light? or can i oonly obtain this level by using a filter? Thanks

Pictures aren't showing up.

Also, pictures have to be 800x600 or less.

I'm guessing you are looking for more performance then the Red Photon.

Look at the Photon Pro and see how you like it, it seems to be the closest match to what you want that I know of.

For the price, I don't think you can beat the Proton Pro. A test had it going 406 hrs on low white. When Marduke speaks, listen. He's probably saved me a couple of hundred dollars in just the past few weeks.
There's no telling how much more money I can save by Christmas.

Believe me, I'll be taking in everyone's advice as my experience with lights is somewhat limited . I hope you can see the pictures now as I've resized them to 800x600 (thanks gunner12 and yes i am looking for much better performance than the photon) and uploaded them to a proper site (as opposed to myspace as that was the only thing I had available at the time. All should be ok now).

Will the Proton Pro be the same or similar to my "ideal" picture above?


Also, thinking about it, if the red light can be of the same quality, brightness, throw etc etc as the white Photon Freedom (i.e. a white Freedom....but in red...if you know what i mean!) then i'll be satisfied with that.

Edit... i did a search on CPF and google for the Ralights Ra-100-Tr (red LED) but there was only two links and that's it. One on CPF (where it's only mentioned as a light to put into their concealco holster), and the other is their website but they don't give you any details on that particular unit, neither on the FAQ page or the PDF download. Does that mean that all the units despite the color of the LED will perform the same...i.e. "Maximum light Output: 85, 100 or 120 lumens for 1 hour" which even with my limited experience I find hard to believe also applies to the red LED......or does it? oo: Mind you it is a bit steep at $230 (£165 approx which is over my budget. Thanks for the suggestion anyway:thumbsup
Look forward to hearing more suggestions. Cheers

The pics work now.

The Photon Pro might be similar to the Red Freedom Micro you have. I have no proof of this though.

The Proton Pro isn't as deep of a red, but it's much brighter than a red Freedom Micro. It's still fully adjustable in brightness just like the Freedom.

Hi Marduke (or anyone of course),
If the Proton is much brighter than the freedom red, would you agree that it's the same or very close to the white's characteristics in therms of brightness, throw etc (is that a silly question because of the fact that they're two different colors and so we can't really compare them, or is it purely down to the fact that red LED's just need much more power to come close to the brightness etc of a white one)?


Also, would you be able to advise how the white LED stacks up to my specs. I reckon i could live with it from what i've seen in the 10m beam shots above (i do realise that i'll be struggling to make any detail at 20 meters) but ONLY because if i do buy it i'm going to use the hairspray trick to get rid of the dark ring. I really don't like the way the wall/doors in the corridor (of the 10m bean shots) are almost totally in shadow!! :thumbsdow If i do use the hairspray trick, then can you inform me how this will affect the throw etc? Will it make a significant difference because if it doesn't and i get the same beam as in the 10m shots but with the corridor being lit up (similar to, but of course not as bright as, the Wolf-Eyes and Fenix P3D lights) then i think my search may well be over (only, of course, if the answers to the red questions are positive)?

Sorry about all these questions, it's just that if i'm going to spend £30 ($45) on a light that'll just about do the job, i'd rather spend £50 or more on something that i know will definately do the job.

The red on the Proton Pro is about half as bright as full white on a Freedom GS, but it will run MUCH longer.

Keep in mind that out in the woods in true darkness you need FAR less light than you think. To see out to 20m, with fairly dark adapted eyes, you probably only need about 10-15 lumens of white.

wow! i never realised. I thought i was looking at around 50/60 maybe 70 lumens at the very least, but only because of the beam shots i've been looking at on various threads. For eg. One was doing a comparison of a wolf-eyes and a Fenix L2D with various shots from 10m, 20, 25m and all the beams were on max output which i figured were around or over 100 lumens (i can't find the thread now but here's another https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/202879 of a Wolf-Eyes Raider 9Aat 10m and 20m and that has a 280 lumen output.

That's great news because it means i don't have to search high and low for a high lumen light. Cheers Marduke :thumbsup:

Would you know what the max lumen output of the Proton white AND red is as their website quotes it in candlepower, 1000+ and 12 respectively! Just out of interest would you know what the lumen count is for the white and red photons?

Marduke said:

The red on the Proton Pro is about half as bright as full white on a Freedom GS, but it will run MUCH longer.

Keep in mind that out in the woods in true darkness you need FAR less light than you think. To see out to 20m, with fairly dark adapted eyes, you probably only need about 10-15 lumens of white.

Click to expand...

It is? I thought that it used a small 3mm red LED right? And it's half the output of a white GS Freedom? Dang, that's pretty impressive. Still though, a 3mm LED isn't going to throw far at ALL. They usually have a beam angle of between 30 and 50' and are only good up to a short distance.

For the OP, just curious as to why you want a bright red LED for navigating dark woods. A dim white LED would be far more useful in that kind of environment (unless it's military and you have whiteout regs) as red just sucks against a green/brown forest background. If you truly must have red then I'd just get a red filter for whatever white light source that you decide on and I'd decide on something like this http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24205/sesent/00
scroll down for a red filter

pedrosa,
IIRC, the Proton Pro us sub 100 lumen on high, but is somewhat throwy. In real use, I doubt you'd notice the dark ring. Artifacts like that in a beam only really ever show up on white walls, and they quickly disappear when you actually USE the light, especially outside away from flat even surfaces. I guess my suggestion is to go ahead and try out the light as you intend to use it prior to doing any semi-permanent mods (hairspray). That being said, this is one very quick and easy way to get a diffuser for the Pro (among other lights), which the other being a single layer of satin finish scotch tape on the lens.


To see how much light you need, try this. Take some light you own which is around 10-20 lumens (best guess). Turn it on and navigate yourself into a dark room in your house. Shine it around and get a feel for how well it illuminated the dark corners. Then turn off all lights and sit in the dark for just 5-10 minutes. Then turn the light back on. Same light, same brightness, but it suddenly appears MUCH brighter than you remember, doesn't it? Same thing happens in the woods. Once you get used to the darkness, just a few lumens goes a LONG way.

Night hiking with even a small amount of ambient light (ie. moon), you generally only need about 2-3 lumens aimed down at your feet to make sure you don't trip (excellent time to use red). But by keeping the light low, you are able to see everything else around you. With bright lights in the woods, you can only see what your beam illuminates. By utilizing your nightvision, you can see EVERYTHING, far beyond what you light is capable of.

I do a fair bit of mountain walking at night and really enjoy walking without a light, but of course I do need to light up the trail ahead about 5 to 10m every now and again to keep on track. I used to use a white cheapo which did the job but was too bright and eventually broke. I then invested in a Silva L1 and lost because the switch was too fiddly as it doesn't have a momentary on; you have to keep it pressed for about a couple of seconds to turn it on and the same to turn it off. This was getting on my nerves especially when I'm trying to do this when it's on my head! I just want to be able to give the trail a quick flash and that's it. Are red filters just as good as an LED?

Marduke, You're right about not needing too much light when using night vision but I need a fairly powerful white one for finding a decent place to camp which doesn't matter if I t ruins my night vision as I'll be going to sleep afterwards. Hence the need for both red and white; red for walking, white for searching. Will the Proton be enough for the searching? As I think you've convinced me that the red should be ok for the walking.

I think the Pro would be enough.

One other light worth thinking about might be the upcoming NiteCore D20. Little is known so far, but it should have a white low enough to use without fouling up your NV, and would have WAY more power available than you need. When using while in low, you can press and hold to ramp up to see what's ahead, then press and hold again to ramp back down.


Or, you could be a true flashaholic and get both. You should always have a backup anyhow. :naughty:

The Pro is available now, and you could wait for the reviews on the D20 in the coming weeks to see if it's worth it and relegate one of them to a backup/secondary role.