What's Your Opinion On This Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

What\'s Your Opinion On This Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

I am posting because of a bad transaction that originated on CPF's B/S/T, and I feel our members will post wise and unbiased opinions to help create some guidelines or at least opinions from which we can gain insight and reference for future situations similar to this problem I encountered...

I put up some lights for sale, someone bought two of them. Initially he offered an even lower price for them, but I explained that one of the lights was a one-off, for which I had paid a machinist to make this prototype, and I was not plannin to make any more so this would have been a rare light indeed. And the asking price was already well below my actual cost. So I politely declined and actually began having second thoughts over even selling this light.

But instead of a follow-up offer (usually the normal course of events in this type of negotiation), the buyer immediately came up to the full price, commenting about no hard feelings, he just had to make an offer. The buyer Paypal'd the money and I sent the lights – paying a little extra for Delivery Confirmation as I always do.

Several days later the buyer indicates he has not yet received the items. I check the Delivery Confirmation and it is confirmed, that the package was indeed delivered to the correct address and it provided the date and even the time of delivery.

The buyer says he was home all day, and that he lives in a house and not an apartment or condo. This naturally eliminates other possible reasons for his non-receipt of the package. He asks how I will make this right, and although I did all I could reasonably be expected to do as far as completing my end of the transaction, I still offer to build him a light and sell it to him at my cost. This is because, in the nearly 500 flashlight transactions in which I have been involved up until now, there has only been one other case of non-delivery and that was how we resolved it then. And we also had it sent to an alternate address (his mother's house) where he got it safe and sound.

He writes back in a rather offended tone saying that he is out the money, has no lights, and now I want him to send me More money? I realize how he must have felt, so I withdraw the offer and apologize, explaining I did it only because this was the successful resolution to a similar problem in the past so I offered it again.

There are follow up e-mails between us informing each other that the postal inspectors on both sides were contacted, and my side advised that the intended recipient should initiate the missing mail case, since Delivery Confirmation went through and if there was a crime involved (a theft directly from his mailbox before he went out to check it, for example), any subsequent investigation would come under the buyer's jurisdiction.

To make a long story slightly shorter, we seemed to agree that we should try again, although I asked him to tell me what he felt would be a fair deal. He never replied (more on this in a moment). I also suggested we try another carrier (the non-delivery was through USPS Priority Mail) such as UPS, FedEx, etc. He replies that he also had a package come up missing from UPS as well, so by now I am naturally thinking there is at least one person in his area, possibly more, that is stealing mail. And so I relate this reasoning to him and offer to send the next package to his workplace as he did tell me he was an LEO, and I myself have received numerous deliveries at my own duty station with absolutely No theft problems (naturally). In fact many of you have asked for the same shipping deal, having me send it to your place of business (probably hiding yet another flashlight purchase from the wife/girlfriend…).

This was the last communication between us and took place on May 1st. He never replied, and today I receive a notification from Paypal that the buyer has filed for a return of his funds. It does go on to explain how I can present my side of the story (Delivery Confirmation, etc.), so I provide the information and now just have to wait and see what they say.

But what do you all think? My single, unfailing premise is that I did all I could reasonably do. The postal inspectors here told me that even if I had insured the package, collection would be difficult at best due to the very valid Delivery Confirmation. I am willing to sell him a light at exactly what it costs me in parts alone, and my only condition is that it be sent to another address (like his duty station). If a thief stole from his mailbox, it would be the same as a burglar stealing the same lights from his house, or from his car. The lights were delivered to the closest point to him that I could send them, to the very address that he himself requested they be sent. If he was home all day and had not the vigilance to notice someone rifling through his mailbox, should I be the one to shoulder the blame? I already offered to sell another light at cost, to ship it via another carrier, to send it to another (presumably safer) address -- what else could or should I have done?

Any and all comments are appreciated; perhaps this will help to establish some set of criteria for the future.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

It looks like you fullfilled your responsibilities and have offered a good resolution. A larger retailer might offer to replace the goods anyhow but you make it clear you are just another Flashaholic. Understandably you don't have a large profit margin to do replacements. At the same time I'm sure you understand his attitude, he paid and didn't get his merchandise. It was no fault of yours though. If I was dealing with an unknown ebayer I might try to recover funds myself, dealing with you or anyother well respected CPF'er I think I would write it off as stupid tax. My only suggestion would be that in the future you send packages insured, signature required. Or suggest that to your prospective buyers and make it their choice to take the risk or shoulder the cost. When I buy something through the mail I always weigh the cost of insurance vs the cost of loss. It does bother me though that in today's society with high crime rate both UPS and USPS drop insured packages a mile from my house and count that as delivered.

I don't know if that helps but they are my (jumbled) thoughts

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Bummer Charlie! Neither of you are a big business that can easily eat the loss and write it off as a cost of doing business. Like you say, even insurance wouldn't have made a difference, likely, in this case.

One obvious if not equitible solution would be for you to return half the money back to the buyer and you both walk away; loss shared. This would be a suggestion if you were both communicating and working on a resolve. Sounds like in this case the fellow has chosen to pass the problem on to another entity. Like you say, now you can wait and see how they call it.

In the future and for all of us, I guess the key here is when does possesion transfer? When the light leaves your hands or when it is received by the customer? In transit is it a 50/50 proposition?

Bummer! Please let us know what PayPal has to say.

- Don

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Mr Bulk.
First of all, I am really sorry for what happen to you.
Lost mail do occasionally happens. Like my 4 package, all delivered via USPS. Two of them were even requiring signature confirmation (but still lost). The two packages were reported to be delivered and signed, but when i asked about the signature, no proof can be given. The two packages eventually makes their way here in about a week or so. The other 2, one made it while the other forever lost. The one that lost (nye lube) was resent by the seller at his own discretion. The point is, while there is really no one to blame, both side, the seller and the buyer have to be responsible. I am not saying that you have to resend the light. It all depends on certain criteria: did the seller ask you to ship via USPS? if yes, then you held no responsibility. However, if it is your initiative to send it via USPS, and the buyer know that, then he should be prepared if smtg lost. Again, you held no responsible. On the other hand, if the seller sent the package via USPS, without the buyer knowing, the seller may or may not be responsible. Remember, if it was said to be delivered, it is also possible that the package is not yet delivered by the postmaster. Therefore, the culprit of the missing items might not be a thief. The only time that the seller was at fault is when he said the package was delivered but he did not or send the package via certain service which the buyer did not agree upon. All of which, you did not do.
From what you tell and I can tell based on previous experience doing business with you, you have done all, ALL that a seller can do. His asking for a refund is ridiculous as you are not at fault whatsoever. Did the light (the second one) make it through? Did he receive the light? Even if he did not receive it, but if the delivery was confirmed, your responsibility has ended at the point.

Conclusion, the buyer does not seem like a good one. He should have respect the agreement and your judgment of sending another light, free of charge.

Btw, I assume you send him another one. If not, forgive me for my false understanding. But still, you held no responsibility. You just asked him if he wants you to send the light or not to his workplace. And then without further notice, he sends you a refund request? Huh, sounds fishy. This is too extreme, but perhaps he took the light and said that it was stolen?

Cheers.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Well, If there was a delivery confirm, then you aren't obligated to do anything. But, being a fair businessman, you have given several possible (and fair) solutions to the problem.

I do not believe you are obligated 100% to replace the missing items.

Looking objectively, it does sound like there is a theft of mail issue, and the Carrier should not be leaving a package on a doorstep, and then saying it has been dilvered. At least, where I live, the Carrier will not leave a Delivery Confirm package unless someone answers the door. It's so bad in some area near me that UPS and USPS will not leave a package at doorstep, even if there is a note saying to do so. There was a problem a while ago in which certain bad guys were following UPS trucks, and then stealing the packages off the doorsteps. They would then sell the purloined goods at the weekend flea-markets.

--dan

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Did you find out who signed for the delivery confirmation. USPS will only deliver the package to the written address and a signature is required. So it can't possibly be that someone stole it from his mailbox, maybe someone in his house. If you or someone is unavailable at the address then they will allow you to pick it up at the post office with a valid ID. I don't really know the whole story and have yet to hear his side, but it was delivered and confirmed to the recipients address so I would imagine that it would be his burden to prove that it was not delivered. Geeze and I thought delvery confimation was supposed to solve these issues.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

I agree that this post has a place here in the B/S/T forum as it aids in establishing acceptable practices and is seen by those that obviously participate in the B/S/T function.

Wow Charlie, I'm really sorry to hear that this happened. Common sense and reason tells me that you have done all that you can do to remedy the situation. This does appear to be the symptom of mail theft in this particular neighborhood, and no matter what courier is chosen, the outcome could be the same. Thieves obviously do not discriminate between couriers.

You would think that USPS insured packages would have a distinct benefit. For example, Delivery Confirmation only confirms delivery to the addressee. Once the package is considered delivered by USPS, what happens to the package after the fact, i.e. theft from the premises, USPS insurance does not apply. The insurance, as I understand, is only applicable to in-transit packages that are damaged or lost.

I honestly don't know what is the perfect solution. None of us want to be on the other end of a stolen package. With that same respect, we don't want to be the sender of goods that are claimed to be "not received." Not that this has happened in this case, but what's to prevent a buyer from saying that the product never arrived, but received their goods and are hoping for a free ride. This could possibly happen. The responsibility has to end somewhere, and Delivery Confirmation is a measure of protection. Once fulfilled, the final leg of responsibility should rest with the buyer. The sender obviously cannot control all aspects of shipment at a delivery address.

When purchasing goods via PayPal, I always prefer to debit funds via a credit card registered with PayPal. Should things go wrong with the transaction when Delivery Confirmation shows "delivered" - my option is to file a loss claim with the credit card vendor, as opposed to billing dispute resolution, since the sender obviously met their part of the agreement.

-Jim

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Mr. Bulk, I do not think much of this buyer. You went the extra mile. He does not deserve your consideration. Next time when you get bad vibe feeling about a buyer drop the deal. Don't change the way you do business, it works. Ship like you always do. Sounds like your customers appreciate that. Bill

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Unfortunately, there have been threads of late discussing usps giving delivery confirmation on undelivered packages. Since you know that you sent the light, either, the postman, a thief or the customer got the light, you have proof that you sent it. If it was me, I would reluctantly offer to build one at half price or cost to show good faith in trying to come up with a compromise. You shouldn't have to, at your total expense, replace the light when confirmation was made. The customer shouldn't have to pay full fare for a light he already bought once. You know you sent it and he knows he didn't get it (taking people at face value). The buyer could have received the light, or it was never delivered, no one will ever know unless the light shows up later. Half price simply means you are willing to share the burden of loss. However he has tilted the situation to one of confrontation , and after all , you do have delivery confirmation. If he doesn't cancel paypal dispute, offer nothing. If he cancles dispute make him one at half price. There is no fair and equitable solution to this, if all is true, you are both right and you should then be grateful that this hasn't happened before. In a perfect world it would have gone ups with insurance and then you would be covered. Someone will be unhappy regardless. I'm sure you already have thought this out by making the offer that you already made, and just want some feedback, us telling you ,that you are ok, when you already knew that as well. You offered to do what you could under the circumstances. You can probably claim it as a business loss as well.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

If I sent a postal order for a product, and did not receive it I would do what everybody else does, wait for the USPS to handle it. It takes weeks, but that is the way it is. Of course I would go to the seller and ask if the item was sent, first. I would not expect the seller to offer me any deals, or my money back. I know the buyer, in this case, used PayPal, so if he can get his money back from PayPal, and not have it come out of your picket, then he ought to be satisfied. I sent for a product, payed via postal order, the item never showed up. I sent another postal order for the item, and waited for USPS to resolve the original money order payment. Much later I was refunded the money by USPS.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

[ QUOTE ]
dano said:
Looking objectively, it does sound like there is a theft of mail issue, and the Carrier should not be leaving a package on a doorstep, and then saying it has been dilvered.

[/ QUOTE ]
This irritates me, but it happens frequently. If it only has delivery confirmation, then they put it in the mailbox or leave on doorstep and scan it as "delivered."

[ QUOTE ]
DHCrocks said:
Did you find out who signed for the delivery confirmation. USPS will only deliver the package to the written address and a signature is required. So it can't possibly be that someone stole it from his mailbox, maybe someone in his house. If you or someone is unavailable at the address then they will allow you to pick it up at the post office with a valid ID. I don't really know the whole story and have yet to hear his side, but it was delivered and confirmed to the recipients address so I would imagine that it would be his burden to prove that it was not delivered. Geeze and I thought delvery confimation was supposed to solve these issues.

[/ QUOTE ]
Delivery confirmation is different from signature confirmation. As noted above, they don't have to actually give it to a person to scan it as "delivered."

Regarding insurance--insurance may not be of any help to a package scanned as "delivered" (thought I don't know whether that is true or not), but in my experience, they will not leave an insured package on the doorstep. They leave packages for me that have delivery confirmation, but whenever the package is insured I have a note that tells me to go pick it up at the post office.

My standard practice is to send via Insured USPS Priority w/Delivery confirmation (noted in the ad). I scan the box/package/whatever before I send it, and I also scan a copy of the delivery confirmation and insurance receipts and send it to the buyer. Thankfully I have not lost a package buying or selling. I have had a package that was confirmed delivered to a different part of the state, but did receive the package within a couple of days. The package may still show up.

As for this particular situation, you have done everything you can. The buyer is being unreasonable if he expects you to absorb the entire cost. If anything the loss should be halved. It's kind of a grey area--one of those "unwritten rules," but I would never expect the other person to take the entire loss, nor would I expect to take the entire loss myself--especially if the seller has proof (i.e. delivery confirmation) that he/she sent the item.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Really appreciate all the comments, guys. The only thing that concerns me is the part about the seller giving up half the cost. If this were to become The Rule, then all that any unethical buyer would have to claim is that he/she never got it, regardless of Confirmed Delivery status (so why do we pay extra for it anyway, then?), and Bingo, all the sellers would have to refund half the price. This would kill anyone selling anything on BST, as well as BST itself, not to mention the modders.

I just agreed to buy a $175 light from McGizmo this morning. So if I claim I didn't get it then hey, do I get $87.50 back, just like that? Hey, lights at half-price!

And with this policy in effect even other forms of more stringent protection may not help to encourage buy/sell participation either because as shiftd related, even some of his FOUR recently lost pkgs. had their Signature Requirement(s) apparently executed, and yet still no merchandise.

Hmmm...I still think a replacement offer (as long as it is indeed replaceable and not a custom-machined one-off like the light that is tentatively now lost) at reduced cost is the way to go. Using a different carrier. To a different address. Although this offer was apparently turned down by the (my) buyer since I now have to answer to Paypal. He should have at least told me he was now going to start this course of action.

Please excuse my tone, I usually don't post like this, but this is irritating. Really.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Charlie Im sorry to hear that your the deal went so bad. I know in all my dealings here on CPF I have not yet had a problem with anyone. CPF members seem to be very honest, there is a rare and unique trust among each other which has always amazed me and I hope that never changes.

Whenever I ship anything to anyone I always add the shipping confirmation for my peace of mind and theirs, on top of that I e-mail the tracking number to the buyer so they can track the package as well, after this I consider it a done deal.

I believe you fulfilled your part of the deal, what happens to that package once its in the hands on the USPS is beyond your control. Your offer to replace the light at cost was a noble gesture but having dealt with you many, many, many times I know that is not uncommon for you. I think the buyer should have accepted your second offer and just consider the rest a loss.

Anyway, I hope it works out for the both of you. Maybe the buyer can ask the postman if he/she remembers delivering the package . . . . just a thought.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Thanks Joe for the kind words of support. And the buyer said he did talk to the regular carrier, who in turn said he does not remember anything regarding the package.

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Charlie,
This is really a lose-lose situation. No matter the resolution you have both lost. You have ,however, probably exceeded REASONABLE care. And your offer to build another light at cost shows volumes of good faith.
I am involved now in a transaction on e-bay where I've never recieved the merchandise, so I understand the buyers feelings here; but I do not agree with his position!
I too am angry, but I'm angry with another government service that absolutely STINKS, and we, the public ,have virtually no recourse.
I've had enough contact with you to know this really pains you because you have tried to handle the situation with integrity. I hope you find an equitable solution, but I feel you have gone beyond reasonable as it is.
BGF

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Ba

It's a curly one Charlie. From your perspective, you have done all you can and more. From the buyer's perspective, he paid money but got nothing. I can understand his course of action assuming everything on his side is honest and above board... Surely he knows that you have a lot more to lose and would not try to cheat him.

Transactions of this type are doomed for failure if any part of the chain breaks! I would use this as a costly lesson :-(

The motto? If you ship, make it clear that once it leaves your hands, the risk lies in the buyer's hands. If there are any issues, take it up with the transport company. Choose a 'receiver sign' option if you can.

I hope I will never have to encounter this with my transactions. It is draining, unpleasant and in the end, there are no winners :-(

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

The person you were shipping to was a LEO? I think this calls for a stake-out.

He should leave a package on his porch with a note inside that says "I just videotaped you taking my package. Return it and all the others or you're going to jail."

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

You may want to add this caveat to your transations in the future: "You agree not to hold Mr. Bulk liable for the cost of items that are lost or damaged in the shipping process, either to or from Mr. Bulk."

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

You guys are forgetting one possible scenario that I just went through recently.

I ordered an item from Ebay, waited about 3 weeks, then finally decided to check the tracking info that they had sent me. The tracking number indicated that the package had already been delivered and signed for by a name I had never heard of.

I have all packages delivered to my work address since its far easier than dealing with missed delivery slips at home and this also makes it so that I know all my delivery people. Well, I talked to my UPS driver and he agreed that he had never delivered a package to me on that day and that he had never heard of the name that had signed for it. Long story short...The seller had wriiten down the wrong address, a simple transposition error. The seller contacted UPS after I complained to them, was able to determine the address t was shipped to, and told me "its at your neighbors, go pick it up." Yeah, thanks, the address was all the way across town. I contacted the people at the address and it was some kind of community center. At first they had never heard of the package, but after talking to a couple different people, they finally found it sitting in some corner. When I went to pick it up, I asked them why they still had it and hadn't given it back to UPS to deliver to the proper address (or return to shipper), and they couldn't give me an answer. As my luck goes, I found out halfway through the ordeal that the company I was dealing with was renowned for its extrememly poor customer service and has MANY negative feedbacks on ebay (don't buy from BYDUSA/BatterySpace btw) so I'm lucky I even got the product eventually.

So, perhaps it was delivered but to the wrong address. The quicker you contact the mail delivery person, the more he might remember about delivering or not delivering it.


Mark

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

First, let me say that I am sorry to hear of your misfortune Charlie. I have done a lot of business here in B/S/T and it disheartens me to hear of a problem like this, especially that it had to go to a third party (PayPal) and couldn't be kept in the 'family'.

For the benefit of others, let me say that I have done business with Charlie, aka Mr. Bulk, on numerous (exact numbers will be left out for my safety) occasions and I've always been happy with each deal. Normally, this would of course preclude me from an unbiased opinion but not in this case for the following reason.

I posted on 4/30/03 in a thread in the Cafe on this same subject (possibly on this same deal) and here is the meat of it:

[ QUOTE ]
treek13 said:
If it was a business, I would say that they are definitely responsible for the package until you receive it. *Let me stress that I mean actually get it. In another thread on the USPS tracked delivery thing, it has been repeated by multiple people that USPS has recorded packages as delivered that clearly were not. If they show it as delivered, that 'should' mean that it was delivered to your property but in truth it isn't a guarantee. Check out jeers to USPS.

However, it really is a different thing dealing with a modder. It is more like dealing with any individual in the B/S/T forum. They really don't have the means to take these kinds of losses. They don't have any business insurance; there is no overhead/shrinkage costs built into their pricing,etc.

In a case like this, I would think that responsibility should be shared ideally. I don't think either of you should have to bear the whole economic burden. Hopefully, you can work out some sort of deal whereby you can purchase a new light at a reduced price that can then be sent to you using a different method.

Before getting to this step, definitely check with your post office. There have been posts by members who went through the exact same thing as you who actually got their packages once they went to the right post office and asked for them. Give it a shot.

On a personal note, I think that it was a good call and a classy move keeping names out of it until things are settled. That said I hope that you will reveal the details of what the conclusion to this mess is (full/partial/no refund) and who the modder is. It would be a service to us all.

Thanks and good luck,
Pat

[/ QUOTE ]

I have made the important text bold but otherwise this is my unchanged post. From my quick read of Charlie's post it sounds like he offered a deal similar to what I suggested and unfortunately that was not acceptable to the buyer.

As both a fairly frequent buyer and seller here, I really wish that more effort could have been expended to settle this amicably without resorting to the claim with PayPal.

Sorry for the extreme length of this post but this subject has stirred up strong feelings,
Pat

*Edit-a quick clarification, when I say that the liability should be shared, I don't mean to imply any exact percentage (50/50 or otherwise).

Re: What Is YOUR Opinion On A Deal Of Mine Gone Bad?

Charlie, I don't think it's your fault at all. You fulfilled you end of the deal and the rest is not under your control. It's now a postal matter or a law enforcement issue. I give you a thumbs up for trying to ease the pain felt by the loss of his shipment/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif I hope it is resolved w/o any more BS.