Durability Question about LED's

I had a BugOutGear Cree Q5. For some reason it died very soon after I bought it (within 2 sets of batteries). Or rather, it puts out like 10 lumens or something. Weaker than my $0.99 penlight. Are all aftermarket LED systems this unreliable? I want something of Surefire quality. Does this mean go Surefire or Go Home? I bought a LED assymbly that is equivalent (re-packaged basically) to the OpticsHQ 256 Lumen Cree Q5. Will this match a Surefire for durability in a weapon-mounted setup on my 6P, or must I stick with the less-bright surefire lamps if I want a reliable setup?

Buy a Malkoff M60.

They are a little expensive, but I bet I could run over the LED drop-in and it'd still work! They're built like a tank and I personally have heard of no failures..

I had 2 of the Bug Out Gear drop-in and both died pretty darn fast....I was and still am disappointed. They were bright and had a nice beam.

Malkoff all the way!...especially for a weaponlight!

DaFABRICATA said:

Buy a Malkoff M60.

They are a little expensive, but I bet I could run over the LED drop-in and it'd still work! They're built like a tank and I personally have heard of no failures..

I had 2 of the Bug Out Gear drop-in and both died pretty darn fast....I was and still am disappointed. They were bright and had a nice beam.

Malkoff all the way!...especially for a weaponlight!

Click to expand...

They don't have a spring though. The BOG LED was a nightmare and appeared shoddy with a blob of solder and whatnot. Is the Malkoff better somehow?

I bought the Optics HQ because of what I heard about them being successful in Iraq and TNV only having 2 come back in 2 years of sales and they have the dual-spring setup like the SF LED. Is my understanding of this lamp assy. skewed?

The Malkoff has a positive (+) spring but not a negative (-) spring.
The entire body of the Malkoff is Brass and will mate and make contact when inserted into the body.
I've gone through a LOT of drop-in and the Malkoff is overbuilt!... being a good thing!
Depending on what weaponlight you are using, you may have to open up the opening for the drop-in to fit properly.

What weaponlight are you using?

Just wait, soon this thread will fill up with others saying good things about it too.

DaFABRICATA said:

The Malkoff has a positive (+) spring but not a negative (-) spring.
The entire body of the Malkoff is Brass and will mate and make contact when inserted into the body.
I've gone through a LOT of drop-in and the Malkoff is overbuilt!... being a good thing!
Depending on what weaponlight you are using, you may have to open up the opening for the drop-in to fit properly.

What weaponlight are you using?

Just wait, soon this thread will fill up with others saying good things about it too.

Click to expand...

Surefire 6P w/ a blue SF filter with a Z49 clicky cap mounted in a LaRue 606 offset mount on a Knights Armament Company rail.

It will work PERFECTLY!!

Malkoff also makes an M60W that has a "warmer tint" in case you hate the Blue/Purple/Green look of some LED's
I more closely resembles an incandecent bulb, but likely more white.

If you are looking for an XM tailcap with pressure switch I have one for sale...PM me if interested.

Good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for.

DaFABRICATA said:

It will work PERFECTLY!!

Malkoff also makes an M60W that has a "warmer tint" in case you hate the Blue/Purple/Green look of some LED's
I more closely resembles an incandecent bulb, but likely more white.

If you are looking for an XM tailcap with pressure switch I have one for sale...PM me if interested.

Good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for.

Click to expand...

I like the clicky positioned near my hand on the VFG. I might just get the malkoff.

Well I hope ur happy now. Just spent $57 because of YOU.

I will probably keep the other LED I have as a backup or give it to my dad, he is a flashlight nut and uses them more for fun than SHTF stuff.

N/Apower said:

Well I hope ur happy now. Just spent $57 because of YOU.

I will probably keep the other LED I have as a backup or give it to my dad, he is a flashlight nut and uses them more for fun than SHTF stuff.

Click to expand...

Good choice...I have no doubt you'll enjoy it....just check out the build quility when you get it. Unlike a lot of other products, you'll see where your money went..:naughty::twothumbs

Report back and let us know what you think!

Cree designed the XRE LED to run at 350 mA for 50,000 hours. About 120 lumens.
As most flashlight makers were running 700 mA (the old Lux III runs at 700 mA so the designs are readily available) Cree did more testing and approved 700 mA for occasional use. About 200 lumens.
Unfortunately the competition for brightness led the torch manufacturers to run at 1A 240 lumens and later 1.4A >240 lumens. This is 4X the original design and lifetime of the LED is shorter. As you found out much shorter.
If you buy a Fenix L1T at 90 lumens you can expect it to last close to the 50,000 hour spec. If you go over 200 lumens you take your chances.

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Heat is the real killer of LEDs. To compensate for the extra heat generated by overdriving the LED the modders use massive heatsinks to draw the heat away.
In my M@g P7, Elektrolumens machined a precise solid heatsink and installed it into the torch body with a press. This ensures good contact between the heatsink and the body.
With a drop in the LED is connected to the pill (which has to be hollow to house the electronics), The pill is connected to the reflector, and only the front of the reflector is connected to the body (actually only part of the front of the reflector as the OD of the drop in has to be smaller than the ID of the head). This does not make for good heat dissipation. Note Malkoff uses a single slug of copper the length of the drop in.
Add to this many Chinese manufacturers do not have a proper R&D department (they just copy what they see others are doing) and things can get much worse. For example I read some are still attaching the LED to the pill with tape. Tape is a bad conductor of heat. They got away with it with the Lux I and some Lux III lights running at 350 mA. Unfortunately they are still doing it with XRE/P4 at 1.4A and P7/MCE at 2.8A. Elektrolumens uses thermal epoxy, most modders use Artic Alumina, some even solder the LED to the heatsink.

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In short LEDs are very reliable when driven within spec. When you exceed spec to get the brightest light possible, the life of the LED drops dramatically. This can be minimized by good design and construction but LED life will still be shorter.

There is no question that the Malkoff product is very high quality. But IMO its design is also inherently less tolerant of dimensional variation, which unfortunately SureFires seem to exhibit. This really seems to show up in weaponlights, hence the need for the beryllium copper washer that Malkoff sells.

However, sometimes that washer is not enough.

I have a friend whose Malkoff M60 simply could not make electrical connection in his SF weaponlight. The washer helped with the ground connection, but the center (+) spring was also coming up short.

LEDninja said:

With a drop in the LED is connected to the pill (which has to be hollow to house the electronics), The pill is connected to the reflector, and only the front of the reflector is connected to the body (actually only part of the front of the reflector as the OD of the drop in has to be smaller than the ID of the head). This does not make for good heat dissipation. Note Malkoff uses a single slug of copper the length of the drop in.

Click to expand...

The pill typically contacts the flashlight body (at least with the outer spring removed, which is a typical configuration), offering a thermal path to cool the unit.

Justin Case said:

There is no question that the Malkoff product is very high quality. But IMO its design is also inherently less tolerant of dimensional variation, which unfortunately SureFires seem to exhibit. This really seems to show up in weaponlights, hence the need for the beryllium copper washer that Malkoff sells.

However, sometimes that washer is not enough.

I have a friend whose Malkoff M60 simply could not make electrical connection in his SF weaponlight. The washer helped with the ground connection, but the center (+) spring was also coming up short.

Click to expand...

I am not using a shock isolated bezel. LED's do not require this and it hurts heat sinking. IT was not SF's dimensional changes. The only thing holding that tolerance is the foam in the bezel when you are talking about shock isolated.

It's not an issue of the shock bezel when using a weaponlight. It's the body where the drop-in inserts. The internal cavity shape differs from handheld SFs like the 6P. Hence Malkoff's use of the beryllium copper washer. The washer inserts into the light body, not into the shock bezel. Also, my buddy determined that the center spring was not making contact. He was not using a shock bezel.

Justin Case said:

The pill typically contacts the flashlight body (at least with the outer spring removed, which is a typical configuration), offering a thermal path to cool the unit.

Click to expand...

1) The spring is designed to keep the module away from the body. It is part of Surefire's system for absorbing the recoil of an LAPD SWAT shotgun so the bulb does not break when the shotgun is fired. (Surefire got into the flashlight business because of this request by the LAPD SWAT for the LA Olympics.) The module should be able to slide back and forth which means contact is not guaranteed and heat transfer is iffy.
2) I took the head off my Dereelight and pushed the module back until the spring is fully compressed. The module can still wobble sideways indicating not all the pill comes in contact with the body.
3) Look at the wire going to your stove. It is heavy to move lots of electricity. Look at the wire going to your telephone. It is skinny because the current is low. Same with heatsinking. The module that may touch would not transfer enough heat away from the most powerful LEDs. It has to be screwed down or connected to the body with heat transfer compound or press fitted to the body. A P60 style module with marginal contact front and rear is no comparison to a HEAVY heatsink PRESS FITTED into the flashlight body.

I am not saying a P60 style module does not conduct heat. I'm saying it may not conduct heat fast enough to prevent an overdriven LED from having a short life.
I also think heat transfer may work a lot better if the flashlight and module is designed together rather than buying a module from company A and just sticking it in company B's torch. Dimensionally it may fit. Heat transfer wise it may not be the best combination.
Wolf-eyes P7/MCE modules should go into the Wolf-eyes lights they are designed for.
Dereelight DBS MCE modules should go into the DBS. Dereelight recommends they not be used in the CL1H series.

It's very simple to stretch the center contact spring on the Malkoff. If you break it, I'll replace it.

Gene

I am expecting the Malkoff to need no stretching or any other jerry rigging to work. For $57 it should not require it. None of my SF lamps do.

LEDninja said:

1) The spring is designed to keep the module away from the body. It is part of Surefire's system for absorbing the recoil of an LAPD SWAT shotgun so the bulb does not break when the shotgun is fired. (Surefire got into the flashlight business because of this request by the LAPD SWAT for the LA Olympics.) The module should be able to slide back and forth which means contact is not guaranteed and heat transfer is iffy.

Click to expand...

Not sure what spring you are referring to. The rubber/elastomer shock absorber device in a SureFire weaponlight bezel? As has already been discussed, no need for that bezel when using an LED lamp.

The outer spring that fits over the pill? Removed.

Of course, a third-party drop-in isn't going to have as good thermal contact as one designed specifically for some given light, machined such that it fits in place perfectly and contacts the flashlight body on the entire surface of the LED lamp module. That's kind of obvious.

The point was regarding you original contention that the LED bone is connected to the pill bone, which is connected to the reflector bone, which is barely in contact with the bezel bone, and this is the only thermal path. That is demonstrably false.

Well, it should be in wednesday I am guessing. I called and spoke with Gene today (I usually speak with someone before buying their products, but it was the weekend when I ordered). All I have to say is that I am very impressed. I would buy whatever this man sold that I needed. There needs to be more people with his work/business ethic around.

Ok...Gene beat me too it. Stretch the spring and it will work perfect!! This, the M60, is the only drop-in I use in my weapon lights! My back-ups are also Malkoff's. I would not trust my life and my teams safety to any other lamp assembly. PERIOD! Gene's products are top notch and mine have been beat to hell and still work like new. Do your own comparisons and you will find that his M60's are just better than the rest!